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Thread: Can Yuzuru Hanyu close the gap on Patrick Chan?

  1. #76
    Custom Title demarinis5's Avatar
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by yyyskate View Post
    I am not a fan of Patrick's until I watched 13 worlds live, comparing with other skaters, his skating really is magical. especially that atmosphere he creates on ice using his whole body. It was so different from watching on TV or on computer screen. Comparing to other skaters even Dai (he is magical too), If I am a judge, I will give Patrick the highest PCS hands down. Now, I totally understand why judges like Patrick so much, because every time they watch him skating so close, they cannot escape his magic. All the audience around me feel the same. Patrick is not perfect on the screen. But he is indeed magical when watching him skating live.

    "total lack of emotion or passion in his skating" You would not want to say that if you watch his skating live. As least from the reaction of the audience near me, they all went completely silent, until the end of his SP, then with "tears" in their eyes and mumbling "magical, magical...” At least Patrick has won me over, a decade from now, I will recommend his SP to other people as one of the greatest artistic masterpiece performance in skating history.
    Is 2013 worlds the only competition you’ve watched live? I’ve also watched 2013 Worlds live, and 2012 worlds and other competitions. So yes I’ve watched Chan several times already. But I don’t think watching him live made him an artistic skater. He really has no artistry. To me Lambiel is the real artistic skater. None of Chan’s programs has been even close to Lambiel’s standard.

    Also beware that 2013 worlds took place in Canada, so most of the audience were patriotic and rooted for Chan. At 2012 worlds it was quite different, and the audience booed when Chan won with mistakes.

    Among the current male skaters, I would give you some examples of real artistic programs that I’ve seen live. Takahashi’s Blues for Klook is artistry, Abbott’s Exogenesis Symphony part 3 is artistry, and Hanyu’s Romeo and Juliet is artistry, and the audience all agreed with me. Too bad you didn’t have a chance to watch them live.

    I suggest you watch more figure skating live so you’ll know what’s the real artistry.

  3. #78
    Custom Title BlackPack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    The difference is that the judges are watching him at the side of the ice, not on the screen. And they judge him and any other skaters in professional ways unlike the skating fans. The unsatisfaction of the fans of Chan's competitors is just that.
    Well.... the whole argument fans and pundits alike have is that the judges don't seem to be watching at all. Their professionalism has always been under question.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Considering judges have been caught fixing results over the phone (eg- Jean Senft's taped conversation from Nagano), taking caviar for marks, taking money for marks, giving foot and hand signals to each other caught by camera, bloc judging, dozing off during routines and not looking up until it is over, the mere suggestion one has to just accept what the judges put out as a final score and result as correct is simply .

    Individuals like BlueBonnet who actually claim judges as "professional" really know nothing of what they are talking about. Judges at the amateur level have never been "professional" in any sense of the word. They have for decades been volunteers who dont even get an official salary (hence why many are so eager to take behind the scenes cash offers), and many who have virtually no skating background of their own, just willingess to go through tests to become a judge. That is in fact one of the huge problems. Tracy Wilson, blackballed former ISU judge (despite being one of the few excellent ones they ever had) Jean Senft, and Globe and Mail writer Beverly Smith had a long interview session during the 2002 Worlds where they discussed how judges needed to become professional, needed to be ex World class skaters, and needed to be payed and representing the ISU, not their own federations. Of course none of that happened and we still have a sequence of scandulous results involving people like Chan which threatens to plummet the popularity of the sport, especialy in North America, to the point of non existence. The idea anyone would believe amateur competition judges as things are, or ever have been, are "professional" is too funny for words.
    Hmm.... wonder what Chanflation costs? Are 5 cartons of Marlboros and a few Smirnoff sufficient to ensure Dai/D10/Hanyu get the OGM?

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    I think there is more to Chan's inflated marks than just behind the scene deals. I was talking in general, not just to Chan specifically. In his case it seems the judges have just fallen in love and head over heels with his skating skills, which indeed might be the best ever and are by far the best attribute of his own skating, to the point they exclude all else, 5 or 6 falls per competition, less than extraordinary artistry, uninspired performance levels on given day, less than extraordinary spins, some of his jumps being less than great quality even landed, and all else.

    That said I laugh when the North American media points to the Russians for years as cheater yet dont think for one moment that Americans or Canadians ever could be. Joe Jackson, a disgraced former ISU judge, wrote a book where he ripped into the Russians for supposed dealmaking, yet then crowed and bragged about pulling deals and manipulating other judges at some events he attended or was a judge himself at. Such a blatant hypocrite, and typical of the frequent North American expert attitude on the subject. Then again someone who calls Irina Slutskaya a truck driver with no artistry, but then defends the artistry of his admitted good "friend" Holly Cook, whose artistic qualities are 10 times more ghastly than Slutskaya on her worst day, is never someone to do more than laugh at and thank the heavens the ISU blackballed his pathetic self anyway. The Canadians especialy are just as heavily invested in politiks over the years as Russians. The Americans dont use politics much when it comes to the dance or pairs even those rare times they have someone strong but when it comes to singles over the years they get heavily involved into it as well.
    That's the onion isn't it? How much of it is blind loyalty to some pie-in-the-sky standard that Chan supposedly has and how much of it is actually deal-making and bribery? I'd like to find out.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    his skating skills, which indeed might be the best ever and are by far the best attribute of his own skating,
    Oh. My. God. You actually sort of complimented him. I think the universe just imploded.

    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    5 or 6 falls per competition
    Hey, why not say 18 or 19 falls while we're at it... although I suppose you wouldn't want to be ridiculous or inaccurate, eh.

    You still have yet to point out when Chan fell 5 times in a competition.

  7. #82
    Custom Title spikydurian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    I think there is more to Chan's inflated marks than just behind the scene deals. Although I have no doubt the new more agressive CSA which preaches homophobia (notice how every knowingly or rumored gay skater "retired" after 2008), trash talking, press conference complaints about judging and competitors, and general disrespect of non Canadian skaters, is heavily involved in his mostly ridiculous scores as well. I was talking in general, not just to Chan specifically. In his case it seems the judges have just fallen in love and head over heels with his skating skills, which indeed might be the best of todays skaters, and are by far the best attribute of his own skating, to the point they exclude all else, 5 or 6 falls per competition, less than extraordinary artistry, uninspired performance levels on given day, less than extraordinary spins, some of his jumps being less than great quality even landed, and all else.
    If you are referring to Buttle, the 'gay skater who retired in 2008', Buttle retired because, as he indicated in an interview, he didn't have the 'fire' anymore. He further went on to now become a well known choreographer in a short spate of time. There are also some other gay skaters who has become popular show skaters. If your argument that CSA is homophobia, all gay skaters would be out of job and skating now. As for 'trash talk', are you referring to your own comments?

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by yyyskate View Post
    I am not a fan of Patrick's until I watched 13 worlds live, comparing with other skaters, his skating really is magical. especially that atmosphere he creates on ice using his whole body. It was so different from watching on TV or on computer screen. Comparing to other skaters even Dai (he is magical too), If I am a judge, I will give Patrick the highest PCS hands down. Now, I totally understand why judges like Patrick so much, because every time they watch him skating so close, they cannot escape his magic. All the audience around me feel the same. Patrick is not perfect on the screen. But he is indeed magical when watching him skating live.

    "total lack of emotion or passion in his skating" You would not want to say that if you watch his skating live. As least from the reaction of the audience near me, they all went completely silent, until the end of his SP, then with "tears" in their eyes and mumbling "magical, magical...” At least Patrick has won me over, a decade from now, I will recommend his SP to other people as one of the greatest artistic masterpiece performance in skating history.
    How about Yuzuru?, when you watch him live, is there a chance for him to close gap with Chan?

  9. #84
    Yuzu Tracker msteach3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Considering judges have been caught fixing results over the phone (eg- Jean Senft's taped conversation from Nagano), taking caviar for marks, taking money for marks, giving foot and hand signals to each other caught by camera, bloc judging, dozing off during routines and not looking up until it is over, the mere suggestion one has to just accept what the judges put out as a final score and result as correct is simply .

    Individuals like BlueBonnet who actually claim judges as "professional" really know nothing of what they are talking about. Judges at the amateur level have never been "professional" in any sense of the word. They have for decades been volunteers who dont even get an official salary (hence why many are so eager to take behind the scenes cash offers), and many who have virtually no skating background of their own, just willingess to go through tests to become a judge. That is in fact one of the huge problems. Tracy Wilson, blackballed former ISU judge (despite being one of the few excellent ones they ever had) Jean Senft, and Globe and Mail writer Beverly Smith had a long interview session during the 2002 Worlds where they discussed how judges needed to become professional, needed to be ex World class skaters, and needed to be payed and representing the ISU, not their own federations. Of course none of that happened and we still have a sequence of scandulous results involving people like Chan which threatens to plummet the popularity of the sport, especialy in North America, to the point of non existence. The idea anyone would believe amateur competition judges as things are, or ever have been, are "professional" is too funny for words.
    Oh boy this screams of Russian conspiracy theories again. Some things never change. For goodness sakes if you never believe the best man wins, why do you continue watching?

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by treeloving View Post
    How about Yuzuru?, when you watch him live, is there a chance for him to close gap with Chan?
    Yuzu was in a very bad health condition at the time. So what I saw did not reflect his true strength. even not at his best, Yuzu's jumping forms (good ones) are very tight, pretty, neat! However, his performance was a bit frantic. I was really impressed by his determination to win. you can tell from his face. I don't know if Yuzu will close gap with Chan, according to this one live competition I watched them together, I think, Yuzu need to learn condition himself better in big competitions. and he needs to improve his stamina and skating skills as well. Honestly, Yuzu's performance did not impress me as Patrick's at this one competition. And I am a fan of Yuzu's. I am not a fan of Patrick's or Dai's, although I appreciate their skating. I was completely surprised and blew away by Patrick's SP and expected a great artistic performance from Dai, and indeed you can feel his emotion ooze out, Dai is a master! Javi was very impressive as well. Compare to Yuzu, I feel he has a little bit better ice presence.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aesthetics View Post
    Is 2013 worlds the only competition you’ve watched live? I’ve also watched 2013 Worlds live, and 2012 worlds and other competitions. So yes I’ve watched Chan several times already. But I don’t think watching him live made him an artistic skater. He really has no artistry. To me Lambiel is the real artistic skater. None of Chan’s programs has been even close to Lambiel’s standard.

    Also beware that 2013 worlds took place in Canada, so most of the audience were patriotic and rooted for Chan. At 2012 worlds it was quite different, and the audience booed when Chan won with mistakes.

    Among the current male skaters, I would give you some examples of real artistic programs that I’ve seen live. Takahashi’s Blues for Klook is artistry, Abbott’s Exogenesis Symphony part 3 is artistry, and Hanyu’s Romeo and Juliet is artistry, and the audience all agreed with me. Too bad you didn’t have a chance to watch them live.

    I suggest you watch more figure skating live so you’ll know what’s the real artistry.
    2013 worlds is indeed the first live figure skating competition I watched live, So I am not biased and with a fresh eye. Among all the performances in this particular competition, Patrick's SP was really impressive. I also watched Dai's performance. Honestly, I feel if they both skate clean, Patrick will have a bit higher PCS, Dai has better facial expression and subtlety and emotion, Patrick wins atmosphere, ice presence. In short, Patrick's skating is a little bigger than Dai's if you know what I mean. All the programs you recommended are my favorites. I guess we have pretty similar taste. Unfortunately, I did not watch any of them live. If I did, I am sure I will be blew away as well.

  12. #87
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    Yuzuru Hanyu's Romeo and Juliet at 2012 Worlds is the worst "artistic" figure skating performance I've ever seen.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moment View Post
    Yuzuru Hanyu's Romeo and Juliet at 2012 Worlds is the worst "artistic" figure skating performance I've ever seen.
    Of course you're entitled to your opinion. I think it certainly was an excellent skate and was artistically strong... far from the worst artistic performance ever, BUT certainly not one of the best artistic skates ever as some claim. He fell while simply skating around and it clearly shook him for more than just a few seconds and was disruptive to the program.

  14. #89
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    I think that reaction is really sad. It's a wonderful CoP program and he clearly felt the music and performed like few can. The only problem with it is the spin before his second footwork sequence, where he holds that ungainly position and loses speed for 8 revolutions just to gain the level feature. Blah.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    I think that reaction is really sad. It's a wonderful CoP program and he clearly felt the music and performed like few can. The only problem with it is the spin before his second footwork sequence, where he holds that ungainly position and loses speed for 8 revolutions just to gain the level feature. Blah.
    It's a good program, and the elements were very well executed, but he performed it like a junior coming up out of the ranks (which of course, he was at the time).

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