Greatest Pairs Skaters of all time? and best competitive amateur pairs programs? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Greatest Pairs Skaters of all time? and best competitive amateur pairs programs?

merrywidow

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
I never cared for Rodnina, probably because I'd been a huge fan of the Protopopovs. Of the more modern pair teams I have to give the greatest title to Gordeeva & Grinkov. Special mention to Shen & Zhao, Babalonia & Gardner.
 

snejina

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 9, 2012
Gordeeva/Grinkov - almost all programmes
Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze Chaplin LP 2001, Olympics SP Lady Caliph 2002
Savchenko/Sholkowy - almost all programmes - 2007 Mission LP, Cirque du Soleil 2008 LP, Schindler's List 2009 LP , Send in the Clowns SP 2010, The Pink Panther LP 2011, 2011 SP, Pina 2012 LP
 

wordsworthgirl

Medalist
Joined
Sep 12, 2013
I admit to having mixed feelings about the legacy of Irina Rodnina and her partners. Obviously her competitive record speaks for itself. But she took pairs skating in a different direction. Instead of "two skating as one" the discipline became "huge tricks." The "gorilla and flea" model was not far behind. It is interesting to me that the popularity of ice dance began to increase at about the same time that the allure of pairs skating diminished, at least in North America.

Here are Rodnina and Zaitzev at the 1976 Olympics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hezu89-XrY

Gorilla and flea?! I have never heard that before, and I love it. Would you describe Brasseur and Eisler as in this mold?!
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Gorilla and flea?! I have never heard that before, and I love it. Would you describe Brasseur and Eisler as in this mold?!

I always thought of gorilla and flea as not just a difference in size but a difference in age. The Soviets especially would choose a very young girl to be partnered by a tall, mature male skater. (This was before age limits.) The most egregious example was Marina Cherkasova and Sergei Shakrai. I think she was twelve their first international year. They did amazing throws, as you can imagine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1b8NF9MhYs

The minute she grew a bit, they lost their edge (pun not intended).

In a way, Brasseur and Eisler were a different evolution of "gorilla and flea," because he was a hulking ex-hockey player, while she was so petite. But she was pretty much fully grown, so although Lloyd didn't have the finesse of Russian male skaters, he didn't look weird and unsettling next to Isabelle the way Chakrai did with his pre-teen partner. They did, however, belong to the "big tricks" school of skating.

Someone once referred to Gordeeva and Grinkov as an example of gorilla and flea, which I absolutely disagreed with, because although she was only fourteen when they won their first Worlds, he was only eighteen and was never hugely tall. I think they were just child prodigies. Not only that, but they didn't lose their talent with maturity; indeed, they just kept getting better, even after she gave birth to her first child.
 

Dee4707

Ice Is Slippery - Alexie Yagudin
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Country
United-States
I tear up every time I see that. Every time.
Just watched S/Z's program again. Am sniffling and hunting for a Kleenex. They are so sublime.

I agree, I love the way Hongbo presents her to the audience. The other thing that always got to me was Bin Yao tears. He is quite a tall man.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Someone once referred to Gordeeva and Grinkov as an example of gorilla and flea, which I absolutely disagreed with, because although she was only fourteen when they won their first Worlds, he was only eighteen and was never hugely tall.

Still, I think they qualified for the "one-and-a-half" designation. She was 14 years old, 4 foot 10, weighed 77 pounds. He was 18, 6 feet tall, and more than double her weight at 161. Here they are winning their first world championship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGy7c-kXBx0

I tried without success to find out who was the first to come up with the term "gorilla and flea." I believe it was some Russian coach. According to Wikipedia, one of the first examples (before the term became current) was Manuela Gross (14) and Uwe Kegelmann (21) of East Germany, European bronze medalists in 1972.

Babilonia and Garner faced the "handicap" of being about the same size. Mr Nicks is given big props for designing programs for them that worked around this and maximized their strengths.

Here is an interesting blog entry that analyses the Chinese throw jump technique. This blogger notes that in general the Chinese do not have the gorilla/flea option because the men are too small (see, however, Zhang Hao), so they had to come up with a completely different throwing method (the author calls it a "joint jump").

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.sport.skating.ice.figure/lD2ni1jHE4c
 

blue_idealist

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
I wouldn't call G/G or B/E gorilla-flea combinations. Sergei was a bit too thin to be the gorilla and Isabelle, while quite small, wasn't quite a flea. I always think of this one pic of Cherkasova and Shakrai (whom I have never actually seen skate) when people mention that.

Shelby Lyons and Brian Wells of the U.S. might be a more recent pair (late '90s, I think) who qualify as a gorilla-flea pair. ETA: Never mind. While Shelby was much younger than Brian, I looked at their pictures a minute ago and she was not as small as I had recalled.
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Country
United-States
I never cared for Rodnina, probably because I'd been a huge fan of the Protopopovs. Of the more modern pair teams I have to give the greatest title to Gordeeva & Grinkov. Special mention to Shen & Zhao, Babalonia & Gardner.

Oh, don't get me wrong. My favorite pair ever were the Protopopovs. But, it's difficult to dismiss Rodnina. The record speaks for itself, but she was one of those skaters you couldn't take your eyes off.

She had charisma out the wazoo. I admit to loving and rooting for B/G during Rodnina's latter years... they were the "home team" after all. But Irina was just so WOW.

I know it's an old complaint of mine, but I'm afraid we'll never see pairs programs like those delivered by the icons of the sport. The Protopopovs (and B/G for that matter) took their time. They presented the elements in the most beautiful and finished fashion. They weren't rushed from one trick to the other like CoP skaters are today.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Still, I think they qualified for the "one-and-a-half" designation. She was 14 years old, 4 foot 10, weighed 77 pounds. He was 18, 6 feet tall, and more than double her weight at 161. Here they are winning their first world championship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGy7c-kXBx0

I tried without success to find out who was the first to come up with the term "gorilla and flea." I believe it was some Russian coach. According to Wikipedia, one of the first examples (before the term became current) was Manuela Gross (14) and Uwe Kegelmann (21) of East Germany, European bronze medalists in 1972.

Babilonia and Garner faced the "handicap" of being about the same size. Mr Nicks is given big props for designing programs for them that worked around this and maximized their strengths.

Here is an interesting blog entry that analyses the Chinese throw jump technique. This blogger notes that in general the Chinese do not have the gorilla/flea option because the men are too small (see, however, Zhang Hao), so they had to come up with a completely different throwing method (the author calls it a "joint jump").

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.sport.skating.ice.figure/lD2ni1jHE4c

Fascinating about the Chinese throw jump technique.

As for Tai and Randy, it was interesting that the other John Nicks American pair, Ken Shelley and JoJo Starbuck, were also similar in size--in fact, I think their height differential was even a bit closer. Shelley was small for a guy (though not as small as Scott Hamilton or Paul Wylie--more off the order of Kurt Browning's size), and Starbuck was unusually tall for a lady skater--she looked to me to be somewhere between Katarina Witt and Carolina Kostner. Though these pairs might not have been able to skate today, with the current acrobatic lifts and throws, they did a sensational job with the toughest elements of their day. Both of these couples had started skating together as kids, so whatever happened during their growth spurts could not have been predicted, and clearly they decided to stay together no matter what. Another top American pair who did not have a height advantage was Kristi Yamaguchi and Rudy Galindo. They were also their country's best pair, and very high up in world rankings in their day. (I think they came in fifth in their best year.)

Katia and Sergei were such a unique case that I never know how to classify them. I suppose at the beginning of their senior career she was a flea (though for her, butterfly might be a better classification), and it certainly gave them an advantage, but he was not exactly a gorilla. Also, their excellence came from other factors, not from any extreme or monumentally sized tricks. Their unison, their lightness, their uncanny grace, their speed across the ice, their blade control were all traits that were due to both hard work and innate gifts, not some lucky differential of size. The proof is, as I said before, that these traits did not decrease as she grew and as they both matured. After Katia and Sergei, it became a lot harder to pass off some undersized teenager as a pairs partner just because she could parrot the moves she was trained in and could sail high in the air during a throw.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
good analysis. the Jeff and Mutt's no longer are so prevalent. Also there is only so much elegance a waif can emit from herself - look at Lipinskaya - she tries to look sophisticated and polished but her size or little girl body really makes it hard not to mentin she cannot generate much power on the jumps - she was like Lipiniski - they are like young colts with spindly legs it doesn't look that graceful or in control. it creates a lack of presence and authority even if you land the jump or execute the spin.
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Country
United-States
Fascinating about the Chinese throw jump technique.

Another top American pair who did not have a height advantage was Kristi Yamaguchi and Rudy Galindo. They were also their country's best pair, and very high up in world rankings in their day. (I think they came in fifth in their best year.)

Katia and Sergei were such a unique case that I never know how to classify them.

Of all the American pairs since B/G I thought Kristi and Rudy had the greatest promise. I really enjoyed their skating, and they made real use of their opposite jump direction. I always loved their pair spiral into SBS double axels, for instance. I totally understand Kristi's decision to dissolve the partnership, and no one can claim it didn't pan out for her... but we really lost an opportunity to see an exciting pair develop.

The thing about G/G is this... even when they were young, they didn't skate like they were young. Of course, there weren't a lot of super romantic programs in the early years, but they certainly didn't have the gangly underdeveloped look most young skaters have. They were graceful from an early age. They were absolutely charming.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
thanks Tonto - that is the word "gangly" that so many young underdeveloped or undeveloped female skaters in particular have. AT times though they got through their routines you kind of wondered or worried about Rudi could he lift Kristi though she was petite.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
The thing about G/G is this... even when they were young, they didn't skate like they were young. Of course, there weren't a lot of super romantic programs in the early years, but they certainly didn't have the gangly underdeveloped look most young skaters have. They were graceful from an early age. They were absolutely charming.

That's it, I think. They had a maturity even from the start, when she was all of fourteen. Another thing they had (well, really it was mainly her contribution to the team, I think) was an astonishing gift for connecting with the audience. A lot of very young skaters look as though they're just exceedingly well trained, and they run like clockwork. There's a kind of distance about them, as if they're just thinking about their next move. Katia looked as if she was alive and awake and thrilled to be there, and delighted to be skating with that particular partner above all others. How could the audience (and likely the judges) not also feel more awake and alive and thrilled to be there to see them?
 

Victura

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 8, 2012
That's it, I think. They had a maturity even from the start, when she was all of fourteen. Another thing they had (well, really it was mainly her contribution to the team, I think) was an astonishing gift for connecting with the audience. A lot of very young skaters look as though they're just exceedingly well trained, and they run like clockwork. There's a kind of distance about them, as if they're just thinking about their next move. Katia looked as if she was alive and awake and thrilled to be there, and delighted to be skating with that particular partner above all others. How could the audience (and likely the judges) not also feel more awake and alive and thrilled to be there to see them?

You know, I think this has something to do with Marina Zueva's influence. In her book, Katia talked about how Marina would have them make faces at themselves for hours in the mirror after their on-ice training to practice conveying emotion. She would give them instructions on how they would look if they wanted to express sadness, joy, etc. These are the little details that I think the Russians do so well... It's an easy thing to forget in a skating competition when one is so focused on getting the technical elements right, and when you are a small person skating in a huge arena, far away from the judges and audience, it's easy to think that facial expressions wouldn't matter or wouldn't be seen. However, something so small such as this can add so much to a performance and especially for viewers at home. Certainly, Katia's face is very expressive to begin, and both of them were expressive with their movement quality, but I think this kind of training certainly helped.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
An interesting point! I forgot that part of Katia's book, but I have a strong memory of reading Katia's discussion of their very close relationship with Zoueva and how all three committed themselves to the effort to become champions. Clearly, Marina knew what she was doing from the earliest moments of her career. Thanks for reminding me that she didn't just get started when she went to work with the ice dancers in Michigan.
 

Big Deal

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
My favs:

If the main point of view is perfection and ethernity:
1. Protopopovs

If the main point is the whole package with the modern (more difficult) single skating elements and poesy together:
1. Gordeeva/Grinkov

If the main point is passion and revolutionary new moves:
1. Mishkutionok/Dmitriev

If the main point is acrobacy STILL together with poesy and down-to-earth-human-being:
1.Shen/Zhao

If I would mention the name of Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze and Sale/Pelletier I listed almost all the GREAT one, whose achievement was timeless and lasts forever.
Rodnina was special. But not as a pair skater. She was more a single skater with an unbeatable charisma and consistency.
No throw jumps (only splits) and very few real pair elements what can be called " great"....



If the main point of view is one single performance, it is a tie between these 2 LPs as THE greatest one's:

http://youtu.be/13U6eBsaycY

http://youtu.be/F7qJ4klfNnE

And the best ever SP is:

http://youtu.be/g3apad6eWLM
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Those are three really great choices, Bigdeal!

Just to watch them again is a joy. I realize that I can't watch Shen/Zhao's Turandot without tearing up. Everything about it--what's on the ice, what we know about her physical condition, what they clearly feel for each other--is gripping and astounding.
 
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