And what of Mirai Nagasu? | Page 6 | Golden Skate

And what of Mirai Nagasu?

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
But Ann Patrice McDonough & Sarah Hughes didn't skate under COP. And Sarah also had a wicked flutz most of the time that wasn't penalized. Their skating, and the skating of those with the same problems, who were also over-rewarded, are exactly why COP penalizes both wrong edges and UR's. Mirai had the misfortunate to learn her jumps in an era when flutzing, lipping & UR's weren't penalized. Now she suffers from UR calls exactly because COP has been designed to encourage good jumping & skating technique, and she doesn't yet have them It was not designed specifically so one Mirai Nagasu should get either bad or good scores.
 

Nadia01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 10, 2009
You are the queen of rhetorical questions, aren't you... OK, so she maybe gets slightly under the full rotation, but her body and shoulders are aligned backwards. The problems I had with UR were the Sarah Hugheses who obviously were at least 1/2 under and had to swing their way into a landing. APMcD also tended to fish-hook her landings. There are true URs and then there are the "up to the caller" UR's. I'm not ignorant, I have followed skating for nearly 30 years, have been to more competitions than I can remember. I'm the nerd who sits for hours watching practices, and I am always astounded why a caller declares an "E" on a lutz for Skater A at Nats when Sasha Cohen who never knew a BOE doesn't get the same call and scores higher. It is not an across the board call, and it can serve politically. There should be by this point a computer program that tracks each skater's jumps and can determine the edge take-off and rotation, thus leaving the 'caller' useless. The system is very flawed, but what else is new. I still maintain that Nagasu gets overly dinged versus her competitors. But so is life. She's used to it.

That is completely irrelevant. What matters is where her blades are and what they're doing. It's like saying, "How can a skater get -1 for a fall when her torso was completely upright?" Well, it's b/c her butt hit the ice.

Sarah Hughes did NOT skate under COP, so it's ridiculous to compare how judges judged her skating to how they're judging Mirai. Mirai would've been fine under the old 6.0 system because nobody would've cared about her URs.

BTW - it's not just some international politicking that's preventing Mirai from avoiding UR calls. Americans are also giving her UR calls. She got a few before Vancouver, didn't she? If she'd addressed the technical problem ASAP maybe she could've saved her reputation, but now it's too late. Hence she gets extra scrutiny.
 

tulosai

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 21, 2011
And you are a Senior level ISU-qualified technical specialist, are you?

I bear no feelings towards Nagasu either way. I neither love her nor hate her. I don't even watch a lot of ladies.

But I am absolutely fed up with reading the rubbish in these Nagasu threads about how the controllers are stiffing her, or giving her < that don't exist, or having quotas.

To become an ISU technical specialist is an extremely rigorous and time-consuming process. And just becoming it isn't enough. These specialists have to be re-accredited over a set period of time. They have to continue to pass tests and exams to prove their competency as tech specialists, and the standard is extremely high. This is a process of decades, not months. You can't just walk in off the street and say, "hey, I wanna be an ISU technical specialist". It doesn't work like that.

And then, at the actual competition itself, these specialists aren't just making calls based on feelings. They have the power (at this level particularly) to review each element, with video replay. And this video replay can do everything they need it to. It can stop, slo-mo, super slo-mo and hey, if there are any doubts, they can do frame-by-frame analysis to determine the exact moment the toepick hit the ice.

If the technical panel called Nagasu for three URs then guess what? She did three URs. The ubers may not like it, but it's the stone cold truth. And yeah, if she has a reputation for it, they are going to be more likely to review things. But they wouldn't call a UR if she didn't actually do it.

I agree with the general point but I do think that sometimes when another skater (in fact most skaters) would get the benefit of the doubt re 1/4 turn, Mirai does not get it. I agree that the tech callers are not 'inventing' URs for Mirai- she has a problem and they are within their rights to make the calls they are making. However, at times it is legitimately VERY close (I am not a tech caller but I can watch on super slow motion replay as well as anyone and I can count to 3 rotations) and they NEVER in those situations give her the benefit of the doubt, whereas they would often give it to others. I do not think it is entirely fair, regardless of her 'reputation'.
 

Icey

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
Video replay is at the discretion of the Tech Specialist. I wonder if Mirai's reputation for under rotating might result in them video reviewing her jumps more often than that of other skater's. Perhaps, part of the protocols should be a vr by a jump if it was video reviewed.
 

tulosai

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 21, 2011
Video replay is at the discretion of the Tech Specialist. I wonder if Mirai's reputation for under rotating might result in them video reviewing her jumps more often than that of other skater's. Perhaps, part of the protocols should be a vr by a jump if it was video reviewed.

Now THAT is very plausible. I did not know that and now think it is extremely likely that this is what is going on and why she seems to get the benefit of the doubt less than others- she may be reviewed more than others in the first place.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Likely any of her jumps with a "hook" on the end gets a review call from someone on the tech panel. Since many of her jumps seem to employ this method, they are probably reviewing 5 or 6 of her jump passes per program
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
However, at times it is legitimately VERY close (I am not a tech caller but I can watch on super slow motion replay as well as anyone and I can count to 3 rotations) and they NEVER in those situations give her the benefit of the doubt, whereas they would often give it to others. I do not think it is entirely fair, regardless of her 'reputation'.

I think URing is a common problem and you see a lot of skaters get that call. It may not seem like it because Mirai is such a prominent skater and URing isn't as much of a problem for the top skaters, but if you look at protocols lower in the standings and junior events you'll see that a lot of skaters get dinged. I think what icey/mskater have said is correct about most of her passes getting reviewed because of her reputation and her tendency to "hook" the landings of her jumps.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Part of the problem, I think is that her landings aren't that clear enough to even provide a benefit of the doubt. Because she does that hook landing, it's really hard to see where the blade lands.

With other skaters who are borderline, it's clear they are borderline, so judges tend to give a benefit of the doubt.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Interesting to note. I just saw that Mirai actually had a higher TES in the freeskate than Akiko. Huh. That's definitely some food for thought.

Akiko's spins aren't that great, and Mirai gets L4 +2 and +3 GOE for hers. There are 3 spins in the FS, so that helps Mirai's TES quite a bit.
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Why is there 2 threads about Mirai? Just what happened to her .. TWICE?!

Despite my head banging tendencies when I watch her, I am still hopeful though. Go girl! You are missing that attitude, convey convey convey... express express express and most importantly, rotate rotate rotate. It is that simple really! You can do it, try harder!!
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
She also got lower PCS than Liza in both programs, and she even beat Liza in the SP.

Most deservedly, IMO. Despite her jump mistakes, Liza attacked her SP and skated with great expression in both programs. There were lots of dramatic musical moments in Mirai's FS that cried out for body movement and facial expression that she just ignored. I'd give her no more than 6.00 for IN.
 

skateluvr

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
I still love her skating, better than some reknowned jumpers. She was the bomb for me in Vancouver. Yuna was on a strict diet and after Vancouver she said one thing she wanted was "delicious food." Yuna was very thin-still is.
 

b-man

Final Flight
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
And you are a Senior level ISU-qualified technical specialist, are you?


And then, at the actual competition itself, these specialists aren't just making calls based on feelings. They have the power (at this level particularly) to review each element, with video replay. And this video replay can do everything they need it to. It can stop, slo-mo, super slo-mo and hey, if there are any doubts, they can do frame-by-frame analysis to determine the exact moment the toepick hit the ice.

If the technical panel called Nagasu for three URs then guess what? She did three URs. The ubers may not like it, but it's the stone cold truth. And yeah, if she has a reputation for it, they are going to be more likely to review things. But they wouldn't call a UR if she didn't actually do it.

I have seen a lot of these posts saying tech controllers never make mistakes. I recall the Omaha Nationals, (not an ISU judged event, but with tech specialists having plenty of training and video capability), where Nagasu was called for a "fall" and received the deduction, yet the national broadcast clearly showed there were hands down, but there was no fall. Tech controllers can and do make errors, even with video assistance available.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
It must be harder with a changing body and it sounds like there were some issues driving long distances/times last year as well as finances etc. in a sport so highly competitive. I hope she finds the joy again. No matter what she is an olympian and almost medallist. No one can take that away.
 

LiamForeman

William/Uilyam
Medalist
Joined
Nov 24, 2006
You claim to not be ignorant, but this is a pretty ignorant comment.

The body and shoulder alignment is irrelevant. She doesn't land backwards. Her blade does not hit the ice on a backwards landing. That is the important part of the package. What it "looks" like from her shoulders and body is not the same as what it actually is when her toe hits the ice.

She does land backwards. Last I checked you get 90 degrees leeway. Mirai doesn't seem to be given that benefit. And no, I do not think that was a pretty ignorant comment. Thank you though for your expertise on this subject.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
She does land backwards. Last I checked you get 90 degrees leeway. Mirai doesn't seem to be given that benefit.

The 90 degrees is measured by where the blade touches the ice, not the upper body position. However, she also is not fully rotated in the upper body when her blade lands either. She just turns around quickly.
 

tulosai

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 21, 2011
The 90 degrees is measured by where the blade touches the ice, not the upper body position. However, she also is not fully rotated in the upper body when her blade lands either. She just turns around quickly.

+1. Upper body position is irrelivant, karne and drivingmissdaisy are correct. It doesn't matter if she 'lands backwards' it matters where her blade is.
 

LiamForeman

William/Uilyam
Medalist
Joined
Nov 24, 2006
But don't you think this whole UR issue was started because Sarah Hughes hardly ever managed a clean jump? Her "lutz" was pulled into the inner rotation and after maybe two revs on ice she'd UR the landing and TADA it. That needed to be corrected. But
now it is preposterous. When someone with decent technique falls because they are UR, you have others who live on that UR and TADA it like Sarah Hughes. But I'm sorry, if your shoulders and body and free leg are backwards without a Sarah squirm or swirl to get around you ARE completing the jump. I totally understand UR. I still maintain that Mirai is getting hosed.


And why not just rely on an above spy=cam? Having attending like a hundred events in my life, I have watched practices and run throughs more than most. I loved to sit in the lutz corner. It was always pissing me off when the 'stars' got credit for a LUTZ when the tracings show a perfect C tracing. That included Cohen, Kwan, Lipinski, and well almost everyone. And then Yebin Mok does her lutz, and it's glorious with a perfect outside edge tracing.

I say let's forget a technical caller who is biased anyway and just rely on an above spy-cam that can quantify the rotation and have a picture perfect recording of the take-off edge and rotation. It always amazes me how coaches make their students do their unlucky and UR jumps far away so the judges cannot discern if it is good or bad. That was Robin's strategy with Sarah, just try to hide how hideous this is as if a judge only feet away can't tell her pre-rotated flip jump (ooops that was her "lutz" jump)
 

Nadia01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 10, 2009
But don't you think this whole UR issue was started because Sarah Hughes hardly ever managed a clean jump? Her "lutz" was pulled into the inner rotation and after maybe two revs on ice she'd UR the landing and TADA it. That needed to be corrected. But
now it is preposterous. When someone with decent technique falls because they are UR, you have others who live on that UR and TADA it like Sarah Hughes. But I'm sorry, if your shoulders and body and free leg are backwards without a Sarah squirm or swirl to get around you ARE completing the jump. I totally understand UR. I still maintain that Mirai is getting hosed.

Why are you insisting on dragging Sarah Hughes into this debate? Sarah did NOT skate under COP. It doesn't matter how SHE did it under the old system. Sarah also didn't compete against Mirai either. This is completely irrelevant.

If you want to compare Mirai to somebody else, then at least use Mao, Rachael Flatt, Alyssa, CaroK, CaroZ, Yuna or somebody who actually skated under COP and have competed against Mirai (either at the Oly or some other comps). Compare how tech callers judge THEIR jumps compared to Mirai's. Then you can actually convince me or other people that Mirai is getting hosed by some tech callers out to get her.

Otherwise, Mirai is just a skater with some serious UR issues, and it's not the judges' fault that she hasn't been able to fix those issues.
 
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