Page 9 of 10 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 LastLast
Results 121 to 135 of 140

Thread: And what of Mirai Nagasu?

  1. #121
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    3,095
    Quote Originally Posted by b-man View Post
    I have seen a lot of these posts saying tech controllers never make mistakes. I recall the Omaha Nationals, (not an ISU judged event, but with tech specialists having plenty of training and video capability), where Nagasu was called for a "fall" and received the deduction, yet the national broadcast clearly showed there were hands down, but there was no fall. Tech controllers can and do make errors, even with video assistance available.
    Two hands down = 1 butt down = the free foot + 1 hand = fall under the current rules.

  2. #122
    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Paris, France
    Posts
    2,406
    Quote Originally Posted by LiamForeman View Post
    When someone with decent technique falls because they are UR, you have others who live on that UR and TADA it like Sarah Hughes. But I'm sorry, if your shoulders and body and free leg are backwards without a Sarah squirm or swirl to get around you ARE completing the jump. I totally understand UR. I still maintain that Mirai is getting hosed.

    And why not just rely on an above spy=cam? Having attending like a hundred events in my life, I have watched practices and run throughs more than most. I loved to sit in the lutz corner. It was always pissing me off when the 'stars' got credit for a LUTZ when the tracings show a perfect C tracing. That included Cohen, Kwan, Lipinski, and well almost everyone. And then Yebin Mok does her lutz, and it's glorious with a perfect outside edge tracing.

    I say let's forget a technical caller who is biased anyway and just rely on an above spy-cam that can quantify the rotation and have a picture perfect recording of the take-off edge and rotation. It always amazes me how coaches make their students do their unlucky and UR jumps far away so the judges cannot discern if it is good or bad. That was Robin's strategy with Sarah, just try to hide how hideous this is as if a judge only feet away can't tell her pre-rotated flip jump (ooops that was her "lutz" jump)
    You obviously do not understand what an UR is under the current system. It is not about what Sara did (and as a poster above me says, she is irrelevant to the crux of this conversation whether or not part of why the rules are what they are is her jump technique). An UR in the current system has nothing to do with TADAing it or where the shoulders, body, or free leg are. It is quite simply this: where is the blade when the skater leaves the ice? Where is the blade when the skater comes down? How many rotations occurred between those two events? All the things you are talking about do not matter one bit.

    Now, if what you are trying to do is argue that UR as defined by the current system is wrong and instead of looking at the blade we should look at the shoulders and landing leg, ok, that is your opinion. However, the way you are presenting this is that your definition of UR is the 'real' definition, and it just isn't. At this time, the 'real' definition of the UR is what I say above.

    As for the spy cam idea, I imagine that one issue is that it might be hard to get a good shot of the blade from above- the skaters do have bodies that can get in the way.

  3. #123
    Sometimes bad skating happens to good people... LiamForeman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Bible Belt
    Posts
    342
    Quote Originally Posted by Nadia01 View Post
    Why are you insisting on dragging Sarah Hughes into this debate? Sarah did NOT skate under COP. It doesn't matter how SHE did it under the old system. Sarah also didn't compete against Mirai either. This is completely irrelevant.
    The reason I guess why you think I am "insisting" on bringing her into this debate is I think she is solely responsible for this eagle eyeing the UR. Yes, Sarah was in 6.0, but EVERYONE saw her UR. Narrators would comment on it. She had a 2.5 flip at 2001 Nats, so obvious and ugly, yet still placed ahead of Angela who was clean. IMO it is jumps like these that need to be downgraded. No need to watch with a profile whether a jump is 90 or 91 degrees. Give me a break.

  4. #124
    Custom Title Nadia01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    921
    Quote Originally Posted by LiamForeman View Post
    The reason I guess why you think I am "insisting" on bringing her into this debate is I think she is solely responsible for this eagle eyeing the UR. Yes, Sarah was in 6.0, but EVERYONE saw her UR. Narrators would comment on it. She had a 2.5 flip at 2001 Nats, so obvious and ugly, yet still placed ahead of Angela who was clean. IMO it is jumps like these that need to be downgraded. No need to watch with a profile whether a jump is 90 or 91 degrees. Give me a break.
    Sarah has nothing to do with this.

    COP system didn't go into effect until after she got her OGM and disappeared. After that, there were a lot of debate over how to revamp judging to prevent rigging and/or corruption.

    Strict jump rules didn't go into effect years after she stopped competing, and I doubt anybody cared about her by then. Issues weren't about the skaters who retired, but how to fairly judge current skaters' jump technique.

    There were/are other skaters who had/have serious UR issues other than Sarah (Mirai being one of the current crop of top ladies w/ this particular issue), and top caliber skaters like Mao gets UR calls (just look at the protocols from London Worlds).

    So if you want to argue a point, at least use more current and relevant examples, rather than keep dragging Sarah into this. It's almost like she ran over your dog...

  5. #125
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    3,226
    Quote Originally Posted by LiamForeman View Post
    No need to watch with a profile whether a jump is 90 or 91 degrees. Give me a break.
    Well, you have to draw the line somewhere. 90 vs 91, 180 vs 181, etc. I think 90 degrees is fair and relatively generous, given that at 90 degrees you really haven't fully rotated the jump. I do agree with you that Sarah winning gold probably played a significant role in the scrutiny given URed jumps but just because someone rotates jumps almost 1/4 turn more than Sarah did does not mean they are good jumps. Some of Sarah's jumps would be <<, whereas Mirai's are usually <.

  6. #126
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    292
    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    Two hands down = 1 butt down = the free foot + 1 hand = fall under the current rules.
    As I recall, there were two hands down, no other body part down, no fall under current rules.

  7. #127
    Custom Title Nadia01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    921
    Quote Originally Posted by b-man View Post
    As I recall, there were two hands down, no other body part down, no fall under current rules.
    mskater93 said 2 hands down = fall. You just said 2 hands down.

  8. #128
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Hollywood, CA
    Posts
    3,900
    It's about where the skater's body weight is. Two hands down isn't a fall if the majority of their weight is still being supported by the skates.

  9. #129
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    3,095
    I've rarely seen 2 hands down not called as a fall unless it's quick like when you see one hand down on a landing where it taps really quick and then the landing straightens up. Most tech panel will set their threshold and maintain. Typically those are pretty obvious that the hands are keeping the butt off the ice, therefore a fall.

  10. #130
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,687
    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    Two hands down = 1 butt down = the free foot + 1 hand = fall under the current rules.

    a fall is defined as loss of control by a skater with the result that the majority of the skater’s own body weight is on the ice supported by any other part of the body other than the blades e.g. hand(s), knee(s), back, buttock(s) or any part of the arm.


    Two hands down would not necessarily be a fall.

  11. #131
    Mashimaro on Ice
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    1,419
    I actually think bringing up skaters like Sarah Hughes is relevant to the conversation. In my opinion, the present system is overcompensating for turning a blind eye to blatantly under-rotated jumps by some skaters under 6.0 by adopting an almost obsessive attention to UR jumps. Mirai does bear responsibility for her results, but I imagine it must be very hard to keep the spark and motivation when you aren't getting much positive feedback from the judges.

  12. #132
    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Paris, France
    Posts
    2,406
    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    I actually think bringing up skaters like Sarah Hughes is relevant to the conversation. In my opinion, the present system is overcompensating for turning a blind eye to blatantly under-rotated jumps by some skaters under 6.0 by adopting an almost obsessive attention to UR jumps. Mirai does bear responsibility for her results, but I imagine it must be very hard to keep the spark and motivation when you aren't getting much positive feedback from the judges.
    I actually think this is one part of the current system that is fair. The skaters still get 1/4 turn or 90 degrees of leeway, so they only actually need to complete 2 3/4 turns for a jump to be a triple. In addition, in general, skaters are given the benefit of the doubt. To give more leeway would, IMO be dangerous.

  13. #133
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,777
    Quote Originally Posted by LiamForeman View Post
    I say let's forget a technical caller who is biased anyway and just rely on an above spy-cam that can quantify the rotation and have a picture perfect recording of the take-off edge and rotation.
    Oh, what a good idea! I mean, it's not like skaters have heads and bodies that'll get in the way of an above-mounted spy-cam!

    This is absolutely ludicrous. Why on earth would there be some huge international conspiracy to hose Nagasu? There are far more ladies skaters that are far better who the ISU could be worrying about.

  14. #134
    Sometimes bad skating happens to good people... LiamForeman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Bible Belt
    Posts
    342
    Quote Originally Posted by karne View Post
    Oh, what a good idea! I mean, it's not like skaters have heads and bodies that'll get in the way of an above-mounted spy-cam!

    This is absolutely ludicrous. Why on earth would there be some huge international conspiracy to hose Nagasu? There are far more ladies skaters that are far better who the ISU could be worrying about.
    Hmm. Okay, I'll play. I think an overhead camera is much better suited to reading a skater's tracings. You might not have even been born back then, but there were figures competitions. Judges would stare at the tracings. Try looking up some history, why dontcha? I do not think there is some huge international conspiracy against Nagasu, but I think she is unfairly getting hosed compared to her competitors. Mao Asada appears to have UR issues on so many jumps, but there is NADA on her score sheet to reflect that. Instead, Mirai gets credited with zero triples. Hmmm..

    As for the lutz/flutz/Sarahslutz, I don't even understand why they go to a camera to make a determination??? Even Robin in 2002 admitted they hid the Sarahslutz to disguise it from the judges. Why not just read the tracing on the ice? Who cares how they disguise their foot, just look at the ice. I guess that is too much to ask. Therefore, Cohen never gets dinged even though she's never met a BOE. And Hughes, so craftily hidden, prerotates into the circle and STILL gets credit for an outside edge??? It's so random. SO yeah, let's get an over head spy-cam. It can't be any worse than what we have now.

  15. #135
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    3,226
    Quote Originally Posted by LiamForeman View Post
    I do not think there is some huge international conspiracy against Nagasu, but I think she is unfairly getting hosed compared to her competitors. Mao Asada appears to have UR issues on so many jumps, but there is NADA on her score sheet to reflect that. Instead, Mirai gets credited with zero triples.
    It is one thing to say she gets hosed against "her competitors" and quite another to say she gets hosed compared to Mao. Mao probably does get the benefit of the doubt on some of her jumps, but she is the exception. Everyone else pretty much gets called how they should, including Mirai. She's been getting UR calls for the past 4 years and unfortunately hasn't been able to do much to improve this aspect of her skating.

Page 9 of 10 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •