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Thread: Ashley Wagner decries Russian anti-gay law

  1. #271
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    Maybe not every single gay person has got the message. The gay organizations had certainly got it. The gay movement in America has soon changed the tone and followed exactly what the book said.

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    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    The gay movement in America has soon changed the tone and followed exactly what the book said.
    Why did you use a laughing smiley if you think that's such a horrible outcome? One would think you'd use a crying emoticon instead, or an angry one, to better represent your views.

    Regardless of whether LGBT organizations followed what this particular book said or not, today considerably more people accept and understand that LGBT folk are normal and deserve equal rights and protections. Which deserves both a and a plus a to all the people whose hard work has helped accomplish this.

  3. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Maybe not every single gay person has got the message. The gay organizations had certainly got it. The gay movement in America has soon changed the tone and followed exactly what the book said.
    There's a logical fallacy called "post hoc, ergo propter hoc," which is Latin for "after this, therefore because of this." (Be patient with me. I love Latin.) The idea of the fallacy is to point out that just because Event B happens after Event A, it's not necessarily caused by Event A. An example is that someone claps his hands, and then there's a flash of lightning. The lightning wasn't caused by the clapping of the hands. Just because this book laid out a proposal to change the hearts and minds of the general public about gay people, and then the hearts and minds of the general public change, doesn't mean that the book was the cause.

    The tone of life in many parts of America has tended toward acceptance of both superficial and profound changes. These days you see people on TV positively covered with tattoos--all up and down their arms. In the old days, that would have been impossible. You see almost graphic love scenes right there on TV. Some mainstream magazines use the F-word, spelled out fully, right there in print. Actresses at televised awards wear dresses cut all the way down to their waistlines. And, thank God, biracial marriages and children have become an ordinary occurrence. Knowing and accepting people who are gay is part of that picture.

  4. #274
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    In science labs, the quote about similar events is, "Correlation is not causation."

    An example of the fallacy given is:

    It has been conclusively shown that the crowing of roosters inevitably causes the sun to rise in the morning.

    In statistics, the fallacy is described by the story of the length of the Emperor of China's nose, described by Nobel Prize winner Dr. Richard Feymann this way when he wrote an essay complaining how school books were picked by the committee in California, a committee he served on:

    http://www.textbookleague.org/103feyn.htm


    This question of trying to figure out whether a book is good or bad by looking at it carefully or by taking the reports of a lot of people who looked at it carelessly is like this famous old problem: Nobody was permitted to see the Emperor of China, and the question was, What is the length of the Emperor of China's nose? To find out, you go all over the country asking people what they think the length of the Emperor of China's nose is, and you average it. And that would be very "accurate" because you averaged so many people. But it's no way to find anything out; when you have a very wide range of people who contribute without looking carefully at it, you don't improve your knowledge of the situation by averaging.
    -- Richard Feynman, Judging Books by Their Covers
    The same principle is the fallacy that is the core of bigotry, bias, and prejudice of all sorts: assuming you know exactly what someone is like because you know one single fact about them (like the color of their skin or their sexual preference), when you have no knowledge of them personally.

  5. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Why did you use a laughing smiley if you think that's such a horrible outcome?
    Have you chosen the personal attack way to put down me as a poster instead of going into the issue?

    Do you want to know why? Because, read the posts, they continue to distance and deny it! I laughed at their continuation of denial for the profound effect of that book. The book has given the detailed strategies in order to manipulate and lie to the American public.

    Wait a minute! Before you jump on top of me, the "manipulating" and "lie" were the words the book has used to describe their campaign. They were not my "creation".

  6. #276
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Yup, and it is conclusively shown that the crowing of roosters always causes the sun to rise, too.

    Please read Olympia's post about the post hoc, ergo propter hoc logical fallacy. Just because a book describes what ought to happen does not in any way prove that there was a causal relationship between the book and what happened.

    But, having read skyfly's posts, it's clear that Russian activitists should have chosen a less Gay Pride and more Family Values way of presenting their case.

  7. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    In science labs, the quote about similar events is, "Correlation is not causation."

    An example of the fallacy given is:

    It has been conclusively shown that the crowing of roosters inevitably causes the sun to rise in the morning.

    In statistics, the fallacy is described by the story of the length of the Emperor of China's nose, described by Nobel Prize winner Dr. Richard Feymann this way when he wrote an essay complaining how school books were picked by the committee in California, a committee he served on:

    http://www.textbookleague.org/103feyn.htm




    The same principle is the fallacy that is the core of bigotry, bias, and prejudice of all sorts: assuming you know exactly what someone is like because you know one single fact about them (like the color of their skin or their sexual preference), when you have no knowledge of them personally.
    I didn't know that story about Feynman, but having dealt with the results of textbook committees, I can believe it! James Michener even has a whole passage about the Texas textbook committee in his epic novel Texas. You'd think that in a sweeping novel of explorers, warriors, and ranches from here to the horizon, textbooks wouldn't even come into the story, but obviously Michener felt it was a significant part of the state's psyche.

  8. #278
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Have you chosen the personal attack way to put down me as a poster instead of going into the issue?
    I haven't attacked you personally. I have criticized the opinions you have expressed and the "evidence" you have provided in support of them. I am not sure what you think the issue is, but the only issue I see is that some people think enacting homophobic legislation and demanding gay people stay in the closet is an appropriate form of public policy. You insist that gay people advance propaganda which is dangerous to society. There have been hundreds of posts in multiple threads explaining why people disagree with you, which you ignore or misunderstand. Yet you still demand that people focus on the issues as you perceive them? Fine, let's engage with the topic of this thread: Ashley Wagner expressed her views regarding the Russian laws. 1. Go Ashley. 2. Do you have any credible evidence as to why the Russian laws, and similar laws in other countries are beneficial? Not from kooky websites or discredited research; serious studies with proper methodology and data analysis.

    Getting called out for making biased, discriminatory, unsubstantiated claims does not make you a victim of personal attacks. I suggest that instead of jumping into every politics thread with claims that The Gays are trying to destroy society, you step back and really consider what people are trying to tell you about equality and civil rights. If you don't like me and my posts, look at what Doris and Olympia have written. Their patience in addressing these issues deserves a lot of credit.

  9. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Yup, and it is conclusively shown that the crowing of roosters always causes the sun to rise, too.

    Please read Olympia's post about the post hoc, ergo propter hoc logical fallacy. Just because a book describes what ought to happen does not in any way prove that there was a causal relationship between the book and what happened.

    But, having read skyfly's posts, it's clear that Russian activitists should have chosen a less Gay Pride and more Family Values way of presenting their case.
    It has been proved that the crowing rooster is not the cause of sunrise. What is your proof on yours and Olympia's assertion? At the best, yours and Olympia's assertion is equal to mine in creditability without logic. If you call that fallacy, then they are all just that!

    OK, let's take a step back, say it might not be the source of this profound campaign method change. Let's just assume that. Hasn't this book reflected perfectly the mindset, the logics, and the reasonings behind them?

    As of your quote about the emperor's nose, I do not quite get it. Hasn't that everybody been doing here? I mean to post links and quotes of articles without testing and experimenting the conclusions in the articles by themselves?

    I do like to say, though, that I very much appreciate you, Doris, every moderator, and this site for allowing the expression of different opinions even though they are totally opposite from yours. For this, thank you very much!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Do you have any credible evidence as to why the Russian laws, and similar laws in other countries are beneficial?
    I believe the Russians have explained the reasons of having this law many times. Acceptance and allowing it to spread are two different things. Considering the Russian population decline, also considering the Russian's traditional moral values that the vast majority of their people hold, it fits in their country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    I suggest that instead of jumping into every politics thread with claims that The Gays are trying to destroy society, you step back and really consider what people are trying to tell you about equality and civil rights.
    Now who is kidding who here? Could you please count how many threads have been opened just for this one law in here? And it is not even your country's law. Why don't you step back instead of jumping into their domestic affair, and let the Russians decide what they want to do to their country?

  11. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Same with the Westboro Baptist Church and their outrageous demonstrations that most people, even Christians like them, would object to.
    Just because they "claim Christianity" doesn't mean they ARE.

  12. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    Just because they "claim Christianity" doesn't mean they ARE.
    As the Good Book says, "by their fruits shall you know them." If you look at what those Westboro people do, the word Christian doesn't immediately leap to mind. My idea of Christian behavior in those circumstances are the "angels" who stand between Westboro picketers and funeral gatherings. As I've said, just about my favorite verse is Romans 12:21--"Be not overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."

    It's interesting: most people define "taking the name of the Lord in vain" as using His name to cuss. Since September 11, I have realized that people who do foul things in the name of God (in whatever religion they claim) are the ones taking His name in vain. I think that cesspool of a so-called church, Westboro, probably qualifies for that definition. They certainly can't be defined as Christians.

  13. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    It's interesting: most people define "taking the name of the Lord in vain" as using His name to cuss. Since September 11, I have realized that people who do foul things in the name of God (in whatever religion they claim) are the ones taking His name in vain. I think that cesspool of a so-called church, Westboro, probably qualifies for that definition. They certainly can't be defined as Christians.
    I agree with this interpretation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    OK, let's take a step back, say it might not be the source of this profound campaign method change. Let's just assume that. Hasn't this book reflected perfectly the mindset, the logics, and the reasonings behind them?
    You keep missing the point: even if The Book was so influential and everyone followed it to a T, why is it a bad thing? The goal was to advocate for acceptance and equality for gay people at a time when there was a lot of bias and discrimination against them - this is a worthy goal. As I explained earlier, the only way advocating for that kind of change becomes some kind of eeeeevil propaganda is if you believe that gay people deserve to be treated poorly unless they are totally closeted. Which sadly appears to be your belief.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    I believe the Russians have explained the reasons of having this law many times. Acceptance and allowing it to spread are two different things. Considering the Russian population decline, also considering the Russian's traditional moral values that the vast majority of their people hold, it fits in their country.
    Like you, they have offered no scientific evidence to support their discriminatory policies. Passing anti-gay laws does not make you more caring about children, though I have seen that argument being made as part of this debate. As for the population decline, in that case, why not make it easier rather than harder for more people - that is, LGBT people - to form stable, loving families? If families and children are so important in Russia, why do so many languish in orphanages rather than be adopted, in or outside the country? Is it better for a child to grow up in poor conditions in an orphanage rather than in a country that has more liberal gay rights? That's not caring about children at all.

    Could you please count how many threads have been opened just for this one law in here? And it is not even your country's law. Why don't you step back instead of jumping into their domestic affair, and let the Russians decide what they want to do to their country?
    Because once you decide to host the Olympics, your domestic business becomes the world's business. Don't like it? Don't apply to be host city to begin with.

  14. #284
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    Bluebonnet, for me this discussion has boiled down to: There is no organized movement to spread homosexuality or to attempt to make children homosexual. There is not. You haven't produced any evidence to even remotely convince me of any subversive, hidden, widespread movement to try to "make" children homosexual (I doubt it's possible).

    Are there groups promoting equal treatment under the law/equal rights for LGBT individuals? Sure. I certainly hope so! I hope there is promotion of equal treatment. But I don't believe such groups are hidden or subversive or even all that widespread in their efforts (meaning they probably need lots more support before there is nationwide acceptance here in the U.S. for equal rights such as same-sex union).

  15. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by rallycairn View Post
    (meaning they probably need lots more support before there is nationwide acceptance here in the U.S. for equal rights such as same-sex union).
    Time is on their side. When my wife and I got married our marriage was illegal in 17 states. Now, no one blinks an eye.

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