Ashley Wagner decries Russian anti-gay law | Page 15 | Golden Skate

Ashley Wagner decries Russian anti-gay law

Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Just because they "claim Christianity" doesn't mean they ARE.

As the Good Book says, "by their fruits shall you know them." If you look at what those Westboro people do, the word Christian doesn't immediately leap to mind. My idea of Christian behavior in those circumstances are the "angels" who stand between Westboro picketers and funeral gatherings. As I've said, just about my favorite verse is Romans 12:21--"Be not overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."

It's interesting: most people define "taking the name of the Lord in vain" as using His name to cuss. Since September 11, I have realized that people who do foul things in the name of God (in whatever religion they claim) are the ones taking His name in vain. I think that cesspool of a so-called church, Westboro, probably qualifies for that definition. They certainly can't be defined as Christians.
 

Buttercup

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It's interesting: most people define "taking the name of the Lord in vain" as using His name to cuss. Since September 11, I have realized that people who do foul things in the name of God (in whatever religion they claim) are the ones taking His name in vain. I think that cesspool of a so-called church, Westboro, probably qualifies for that definition. They certainly can't be defined as Christians.
I agree with this interpretation.

OK, let's take a step back, say it might not be the source of this profound campaign method change. Let's just assume that. Hasn't this book reflected perfectly the mindset, the logics, and the reasonings behind them?
You keep missing the point: even if The Book was so influential and everyone followed it to a T, why is it a bad thing? The goal was to advocate for acceptance and equality for gay people at a time when there was a lot of bias and discrimination against them - this is a worthy goal. As I explained earlier, the only way advocating for that kind of change becomes some kind of eeeeevil propaganda is if you believe that gay people deserve to be treated poorly unless they are totally closeted. Which sadly appears to be your belief.

I believe the Russians have explained the reasons of having this law many times. Acceptance and allowing it to spread are two different things. Considering the Russian population decline, also considering the Russian's traditional moral values that the vast majority of their people hold, it fits in their country.
Like you, they have offered no scientific evidence to support their discriminatory policies. Passing anti-gay laws does not make you more caring about children, though I have seen that argument being made as part of this debate. As for the population decline, in that case, why not make it easier rather than harder for more people - that is, LGBT people - to form stable, loving families? If families and children are so important in Russia, why do so many languish in orphanages rather than be adopted, in or outside the country? Is it better for a child to grow up in poor conditions in an orphanage rather than in a country that has more liberal gay rights? That's not caring about children at all.

Could you please count how many threads have been opened just for this one law in here? And it is not even your country's law. Why don't you step back instead of jumping into their domestic affair, and let the Russians decide what they want to do to their country?
Because once you decide to host the Olympics, your domestic business becomes the world's business. Don't like it? Don't apply to be host city to begin with.
 

ManyCairns

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Mar 12, 2007
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Bluebonnet, for me this discussion has boiled down to: There is no organized movement to spread homosexuality or to attempt to make children homosexual. There is not. You haven't produced any evidence to even remotely convince me of any subversive, hidden, widespread movement to try to "make" children homosexual (I doubt it's possible).

Are there groups promoting equal treatment under the law/equal rights for LGBT individuals? Sure. I certainly hope so! I hope there is promotion of equal treatment. But I don't believe such groups are hidden or subversive or even all that widespread in their efforts (meaning they probably need lots more support before there is nationwide acceptance here in the U.S. for equal rights such as same-sex union).
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
(meaning they probably need lots more support before there is nationwide acceptance here in the U.S. for equal rights such as same-sex union).

Time is on their side. When my wife and I got married our marriage was illegal in 17 states. Now, no one blinks an eye.
 

Bluebonnet

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Joined
Aug 18, 2010
You keep missing the point: even if The Book was so influential and everyone followed it to a T, why is it a bad thing? The goal was to advocate for acceptance and equality for gay people at a time when there was a lot of bias and discrimination against them - this is a worthy goal.

I kept avoiding it. You kept provocation and pressing it for the direct confrontation. I tell you why this campaign was wrong. It was wrong because it has manipulated and lied to the American public. First, there was no scientific base, not even 26 years later today, to prove the theory of "gay was born that way". It came from the mind of a genius gay psychologist who, with the help of another gay activist, made a careful calculation for planned psychological attack. Second, ...I will reserve it and don't want to go in there again.
 

Buttercup

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Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Time is on their side. When my wife and I got married our marriage was illegal in 17 states. Now, no one blinks an eye.
Congratulations to you and Mrs. Mathman on your long (and happy, I hope :)) marriage. I know that there are posters here who can now marry their partners, or whose children can now marry their partners, and I hope some day they will be able to say the same about how their marriages are perceived.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Time is on their side. When my wife and I got married our marriage was illegal in 17 states. Now, no one blinks an eye.

The same is true of the couple who own the company I work for. They have been married for about forty years, and some of their nationwide business travels took them in to some tricky situations. Mazel tov to both pairs of you!
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Joined
Jan 25, 2013
If families and children are so important in Russia, why do so many languish in orphanages rather than be adopted, in or outside the country? Is it better for a child to grow up in poor conditions in an orphanage rather than in a country that has more liberal gay rights? That's not caring about children at all.

Even more astoundingly unjust, couples in countries that support LGBT equality are prohibited from adopting Russian children (whether the adoptive parents are straight or gay). I can't even begin to imagine the thought process behind such blatant hatred and discrimination veiled as protecting the children from something that isn't even detrimental to them.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Time is on their side. When my wife and I got married our marriage was illegal in 17 states. Now, no one blinks an eye.

Wow 17 years... congrats Mathman! :clap: Yes, there is some solace in that historically when there has been discrimination, tolerance is inevitable, and we can certainly see that in America (which itself used to be ridiculously conservative and discriminatory). It's just mind-boggling how some people actually consider discrimination as progress.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I don't think anyone decrying the laws is preventing children from being left in peace.

If they want to make statements in media interviews or wear rainbow nails, that has nothing to do with children being left alone or whatever.
 

luckyguy

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 25, 2008
"Sochi 2014: Vladimir Putin says Russia needs to ‘cleanse’ itself of homosexuality"

http://www.thestar.com/sports/sochi...needs_to_cleanse_itself_of_homosexuality.html


Wow. If calling for the "cleansing" of homosexuals isn't some crazy Hitler-esque rhetoric, I don't know what is. :disapp:

How would people react if he replaced "cleansing of homosexuals" with "cleansing of Jews"/"cleansing of blacks"? :scowl:


Putin accused the United States of double standards in its criticism of Russia, pointing to laws that remain on the books in some U.S. states classifying gay sex as a crime.

Is it true?
 

Ptichka

Forum translator
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Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Putin accused the United States of double standards in its criticism of Russia, pointing to laws that remain on the books in some U.S. states classifying gay sex as a crime.

Is it true?
Sort of but not really. There are indeed states that have sodomy laws on the books, prohibiting various sexual acts (I don't want to go into details here). However, in 2003, the US Supreme Court has found those to be unconstitutional - meaning that from that point on, they are unenforceable, even if they are still technically on the books.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Sort of but not really. There are indeed states that have sodomy laws on the books, prohibiting various sexual acts (I don't want to go into details here). However, in 2003, the US Supreme Court has found those to be unconstitutional - meaning that from that point on, they are unenforceable, even if they are still technically on the books.

Thanks for the clarification.
 

Bluebonnet

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Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Sort of but not really. There are indeed states that have sodomy laws on the books, prohibiting various sexual acts (I don't want to go into details here). However, in 2003, the US Supreme Court has found those to be unconstitutional - meaning that from that point on, they are unenforceable, even if they are still technically on the books.

Thanks, Ptichka! I wasn't sure about that myself.

There are some very strange (including some very humorous) laws still on the books in various American localities, which were never repealed but are no longer enforced. I guess the effort of voting them out of the books is too expensive in time and funding, or maybe some laws are left on the books as an expression of principle (or stubbornness) even if they're struck down by court order.
 

Bluebonnet

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Joined
Aug 18, 2010
even if they're struck down by court order.

This "struck down by court order" scenario is becoming ridiculous. What is court order? An order by a judge or a few judges. Change the judge, the court order may alter. The state laws are voted by people. These laws cannot be changed unless they are voted by people to agree to change.
 
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