Ashley Wagner decries Russian anti-gay law

CanadianSkaterGuy · Oct 9, 2013

It's so pathetic when they say that America was founded on Christian values, but wield that rhetoric as if it gives them the right to do things that are discriminatory and unconstitutional.

Obviously sensible people know that the Westboro Baptist Church is not indicative of the average Christian's attitude and beliefs, but gosh, they sure give Christians a bad name.

Bluebonnet · Oct 9, 2013

Surely Kirk and Madsen (Erastes Pill), the master-mind of gay movement, has made you people look so good! :biggrin:

Here is the original article of "The Overhauling of Straight America":

THE OVERHAULING OF STRAIGHT AMERICA
By Marshall Kirk and Erastes Pill

The first order of business is desensitization of the American public concerning gays and gay rights. To desensitize the public is to help it view homosexuality with indifference instead of with keen emotion. Ideally, we would have straights register differences in sexual preference the way they register different tastes for ice cream or sports games: she likes strawberry and I like vanilla; he follows baseball and I follow football. No big deal.

At least in the beginning, we are seeking public desensitization and nothing more. We do not need and cannot expect a full "appreciation" or "understanding" of homosexuality from the average American. You can forget about trying to persuade the masses that homosexuality is a good thing. But if only you can get them to think that it is just another thing, with a shrug of their shoulders, then your battle for legal and social rights is virtually won. And to get to shoulder-shrug stage, gays as a class must cease to appear mysterious, alien, loathsome and contrary. A large-scale media campaign will be required in order to change the image of gays in America.

...

dorispulaski · Oct 9, 2013

The mainstream will identify better with the plight of gays if straights can, once in a while, walk a mile in gay shoes.

And why would that be a bad thing?

Bluebonnet · Oct 9, 2013

Tonichelle said:
If only. It's already happening elsewhere, it will happen here eventually.

I have the same feeling. Many churches have already ducked out some highly pushed points by the gay advocators. They don't want to be associated with the word "hate". By the way, the meaning of the word "hate" has been redefined too.

dorispulaski said:
And why would that be a bad thing?

I did not say it's bad or not. I have just pointed out the tactics they have been using based on this master plan.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Oct 9, 2013

What's wrong with portraying gay people as normal. As mentioned the intent wasn't to present homosexuality as a "good thing" or something people should pursue. It's geared towards the treatment of LGBT people as equals, free from prejudice and discrimination. To a point where people are indifferent about somebody's sexuality just as they shouldn't bristle or clutch their pearls if somebody says they're Muslim, or are dating another race, or are HIV positive. There is a lot of stigma where if you're different than the majority, then when you try to stand up for your rights it's somehow interpreted as wanting special treatment or pushing some agenda. It's unbelievably ironic too, seeing as how the Christian propaganda/agenda has destroyed the lives of Native Americans, and let's not forget about the Holy Crusades which murdered thousands in the name of God and propagating Christianity. And you say gays merely seeking equality and non-discrimination have an agenda?

Bluebonnet · Oct 9, 2013

^^^Do I need to answer this, CSG, with such massive, careful, and aggressive plan before you? :laugh:

CanadianSkaterGuy · Oct 9, 2013

Bluebonnet said:
^^^Do I need to answer this, CSG, with such massive, careful, and aggressive plan before you?

Religious folks go door to door like relentless salesmen, and harass people in public, trying to push their God in people's faces and convert people. They try to manipulate state affairs to correlate with the church's interests, even though church should be separated from state. They tell people who don't follow their dogma that they're going to hell, for having their own beliefs and loving whom they choose to love. Don't you think criticizing gays' equality efforts as a massive, careful, aggressive plan is the pot calling the kettle black? Gays push for society to treat us as equals, Christian folks push for society to follow Christian beliefs and values. Who has the agenda here?

CanadianSkaterGuy · Oct 9, 2013

Bluebonnet said:
I have the same feeling. Many churches have already ducked out some highly pushed points by the gay advocators. They don't want to be associated with the word "hate". By the way, the meaning of the word "hate" has been redefined too.

Oh no, they don't "hate" gays, they only "grossly discriminate and vilify" gays and tell them they're going to hell. That sounds much better, doesn't it? :sarcasm: Defending the church with semantics like that is as ludicrous as defending a man who beats his kids by saying he doesn't "abuse" them, he's merely "disciplining" them.

dorispulaski · Oct 9, 2013

BB, I edited your post about the Overhauling of Straight America because GS was advised that you posted so much of the article that GS would be in copyright violation if we left it as you wrote it. I have included a link to the whole article for those that want to read it, and have left the part you bolded, because that seems to be the part that you felt was most important.

Bluebonnet · Oct 9, 2013

Well, Doris, I did not copy the whole article. I have just posted the main points of that article. So I don't understand why it has violated the copyrights. But it's fine with me. The part you have left out after editing has made no sense for my post. Therefore, I have just edited it.

This aritcle is like the master-mind or the "bible" of gay movement in America. If anyone is interested in gay movement history in America, read it. It's a real eye opener! I'm sure that everyone will love it, gays and straights! :laugh:

CanadianSkaterGuy · Oct 9, 2013

Like any Bible, not everyone will follow everything it proscribes. The Bible condemns homosexuality, shellfish, and shaving. But you still get clean shaven Republicans eating their shrimp cocktails as they express how much of an abomination homosexuality is.

FYI that "guide" was an opinion piece. It's not like they were gay commandments, such as commandments that prevent people from working on Sunday.

How is it a "tactic" to suggest to other gay people and allies to propagate the idea that LGBT people can live normal happy lives", as a way of combatting stigma and discrimination? You're essentially saying standing up to discrimination is a "tactic".

Bluebonnet · Oct 9, 2013

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
How is it a "tactic" to suggest to other gay people and allies to propagate the idea that LGBT people can live normal happy lives", as a way of combatting stigma and discrimination? You're essentially saying standing up to discrimination is a "tactic".

The article has explained it so well.

I cannot explain it better than that. :biggrin:

Olympia · Oct 9, 2013

I know a lot of gay people and have never heard a single one tell me that he (or she) lived according to a manifesto. Whereas all the observant Jews I know are happy to explain the writings of the Torah that guide their lives, and the Christians I know are more than willing to share their favorite Bible verses with me. (My favorite is "But be not overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good," from Romans.)

If this is the central testament (to use a loaded word on purpose) of gay Americans, how come none of them know about it? And who are Kirk and Madsen? I know I'm behind the times, but can I be that far behind? I mean, with gay friends I've talked about opera, science fiction, TV, movies, work matters, nature photography, travel, grandchildren and other beloved family members, and chocolate, but never once has any of them mentioned a paragraph, nor a sentence, nor (to quote Christ in the King James Version) a jot nor a tittle of any such document that gives them a life plan. And I'm sure some of them have marched in a gay pride parade somewhere.

dorispulaski · Oct 9, 2013

Bb That's fine. About 2 paragraphs is ok for avoiding copyright problems.

Mathman · Oct 9, 2013

Was America founded on “Christian principles?”

The founding fathers did everything in their power to make sure that, with respect to the organization of government and the rights of the citizens, the United States would be a secular nation. The very first words of the Bill of Rights are, “Congress will make no law concerning the establishment of religion.” If you want an example of a nation governed by religious principles, that would be Iran.

America’s great strength has always been e pluribus unum – from diversity, unity.

Do you want to go to church on Sunday and worship Jesus Christ? OK.
Do you want to go to the synagogue on Saturday and worship YHVH? OK.
Do you want to go to the mosque on Friday night and worship Allah? OK.
Do you want to honor the smorgasbord of religious traditions originating in India? OK.
Do you want to stay home and worship nobody and nothing at all? OK.

Now, if by “Christian principles” we mean things like loving our neighbors, dealing compassionately with the poor, defending the oppressed, doing unto others as we would have others do unto us, and living our lives with integrity, honor, and moral courage – well, all religions claim these virtues. But it is not clear that religious people succeed at these demanding goals any better than irreligious people do.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Oct 9, 2013

I haven't heard of Kirk and Madsen or any of that stuff before either. But when people are skeptical that I'm gay as a gay man or proud of who I am, I'm sure to tell them that I am as well as educate them about any misconceptions they might have. This isn't a tactic of mine. It is something I do because I'm comfortable doing so and I would hope that the person has an open mind. I don't expect them to agree with me but I'm not manipulating them to portray myself as superior or deserving of special treatment. Frankly I could care less if gays are viewed as superior - I want to be seen as equals and, as Martin Luther King says, to be judged by the content of my character. Is that so much to expect? To be treated with respect and be given the same liberties as everyone else?

dorispulaski · Oct 10, 2013

Clearly, in Russia, it is:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/11/anti-gay-laws-russia

From a piece in the Guardian by a lesbian journalist who fled Russia for the United States with her girlfriend and their 3 children:

What woke me up was a friend who messaged me on Facebook: "I am worried about how this might impact you and other LGBT people with families." This was enough to get my imagination working. Whatever they meant by "homosexual propaganda", I probably did it. I had two kids and a third on the way (my girlfriend was pregnant), which would mean I probably did it in front of minors. And this, in turn, meant the laws could in fact apply to me. First, I would be hauled in for administrative offences and fined and then, inevitably, social services would get involved.

That was enough to get me to read the legislation, which by now had been passed in about 10 towns and was about to become law in St Petersburg, the second-largest city in the country. Here is what I read: homosexual propaganda was defined as "the purposeful and uncontrolled distribution of information that can harm the spiritual or physical health of a minor, including forming the erroneous impression of the social equality of traditional and non-traditional marital relations".

Bluebonnet · Oct 10, 2013

Olympia said:
I know a lot of gay people and have never heard a single one tell me that he (or she) lived according to a manifesto. Whereas all the observant Jews I know are happy to explain the writings of the Torah that guide their lives, and the Christians I know are more than willing to share their favorite Bible verses with me. (My favorite is "But be not overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good," from Romans.)

If this is the central testament (to use a loaded word on purpose) of gay Americans, how come none of them know about it? And who are Kirk and Madsen? I know I'm behind the times, but can I be that far behind? I mean, with gay friends I've talked about opera, science fiction, TV, movies, work matters, nature photography, travel, grandchildren and other beloved family members, and chocolate, but never once has any of them mentioned a paragraph, nor a sentence, nor (to quote Christ in the King James Version) a jot nor a tittle of any such document that gives them a life plan. And I'm sure some of them have marched in a gay pride parade somewhere.

Surely you know the difference... Or maybe... you don't. :rolleye:

I'm not about to compare the contents and the purpose of them or go into details layer by layer to expose them. If I do that, the truth is going to hurt more. With due respect, I won't.

What they are doing are exactly what had been detailedly layed out 26 years ago. What an amazing coincidence! Then again, feel free to think anyway you want.

What I want to say is that homosexual propaganda in minors is absolutely an aggression! Go on with your life. If you love it, no one cares and no one minds. We could have basic respect towards each others. What you are doing is to set your life above our life. You have gradually invaded our space and threatened our way of living. The most disgusting tactic of them all is to indoctrinate young children. I'm sorry. That is absolutely not acceptable!

CanadianSkaterGuy · Oct 10, 2013

Bluebonnet said:
What they are doing are exactly what had been detailedly layed out 26 years ago. What an amazing coincident! Then again, feel free to think anyway you want.

And you're purporting that everyone follow what's been ambiguously laid out 2000 years ago. What a coincidence!

Bluebonnet said:
What I want to say is that homosexual propaganda in minors is absolutely an aggression! Go on with your life. If you love it, no one cares and no one minds. We could have basic respect towards each others. What you are doing is to set your lives above our lives. You have gradually invaded our space and threatened our way of living. The most disgusting tactic of them all is to indoctrinate young children. I'm sorry. That is absolutely not acceptable!

Your victimization is obtuse and unfounded. Forget that you are unable to define gay propaganda without linking to Christian fundamentalist websites... Tell us, how have LGBT invaded your space and threatened your way of living? How does a gay couple holding hands threaten you? Is it because its an example of how the world is changing and shows defiance of reigiously propagated discrimination and somehow religion becoming less relevant and accepted is giving your life less meaning?

In Russia, LGBT people cannot keep their own children and cannot even call themselves normal citizens in normal relationships without facing fines or jail time. Is that not invading their home space and way of living? What about when LGBT people are physically assaulted?

I'll tell you what, we'll stop supposedly indoctrinating your children, if you can stop calling us an abomination with messy lifestyles, if you allow us to get civil liberties such as marriage that everyone has a right to, if you stop preaching hate to your own kids that causes them to bully LGBT kids, if you stop using homophobic slurs and calling us pedophiles, if you stop gay bashing and telling us we're going to hell, and if you mind your own business and stop blaming gays for your own life's shortcomings.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Oct 10, 2013

BTW, if you want to talk "indoctrination of children".... the Bible includes polygamy (David had 9 marriages, Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines!), incest, gang rape, and condones the subjugation of women, slavery, and genocide.

Do you think it's a good idea to be indoctrinating young children in those things by introducing them to the Bible?

Ashley Wagner decries Russian anti-gay law

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