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Thread: Is Davis and White's FD gold mdeal worthy? (i.e, Are they getting lazy and unmotivated?)

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    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Is Davis and White's FD gold mdeal worthy?

    From the V/T thread I posted earlier:

    Quote Originally Posted by Moment View Post
    They have no motivations to improve their programs because they are still rewarded with 10 10 10s. The same with Davis and White.
    Quote Originally Posted by bramweld View Post
    Please don't drag D/W in here, because I might blow a fuse. But then again I need to vent, to see an obviously rough program (D/W), get 110 points at the start of the season Mind you IMHO, if the program were a masterpiece I could understand, but boy, it grieves me to see high marks just thrown away like that
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Jq5nHn9mzc

    Here you go. Discuss.

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    Since I saw the free dance in person in Salt Lake, I would say they are definitely not getting lazy. They mentioned they have been working on the first lift for about two years in order to get it to the point it could be performed. It looks like it. I thought the lifts were amazing and I am very glad I got to see them in person first - before I saw them on video. The first one, especially, made me stop in my tracks and say "Whoa, How did they do that one."

    I do like Davis/White a lot and I hope they win the gold. However, after 25 years of actively watching figure skating, I find it hard for any skater to stop me in my tracks. Davis/White did.

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    Wow... that was absolutely a joy to watch! Definitely a gold-medal worthy program, and I love how they actually build the energy at the end. Edges and turns are textbook. Some of the lifts need a bit of refinement but wow, V/M will have their work cut out for them if they want to challenge for gold. The marks were obviously really high, but to me it was more worthy of the inflation than the NHT marks V/T got.

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    :) aftertherain's Avatar
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    Moment said that? I'm not surprised. D/W have most likely never ever reached his/her "~high art~" standards judging by past posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    The marks were obviously really high, but to me it was more worthy of the inflation than the NHT marks V/T got.
    Thank you.

    Senior B event or not, though ... neither D/W not V/T actively earned as high as they were given.

    Still trying to figure out how V/T got three world-record scores. Don't think I'll ever understand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A.H.Black View Post
    Since I saw the free dance in person in Salt Lake, I would say they are definitely not getting lazy. They mentioned they have been working on the first lift for about two years in order to get it to the point it could be performed. It looks like it. I thought the lifts were amazing and I am very glad I got to see them in person first - before I saw them on video. The first one, especially, made me stop in my tracks and say "Whoa, How did they do that one."

    I do like Davis/White a lot and I hope they win the gold. However, after 25 years of actively watching figure skating, I find it hard for any skater to stop me in my tracks. Davis/White did.
    You know you are probably the second person I've witnessed saying that D/W are better live than on video, so I'm starting to believe there might be some truth to that. Because to this day the bad leg line of Meryl's drives me nuts especially in the Giselle SD, so they must be better live than on video. Anyone would like to elaborate here?

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    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bramweld View Post
    You know you are probably the second person I've witnessed saying that D/W are better live than on video, so I'm starting to believe there might be some truth to that. Because to this day the bad leg line of Meryl's drives me nuts especially in the Giselle SD, so they must be better live than on video. Anyone would like to elaborate here?
    Okay now on D/W live. They too were a class apart from the other competitors. Lots of speed, great ice coverage. And Giselle SD was extremely impressing to see when you're in the second row. They generate their own air conditioning when they do that polka because they are so crisp and fast!

    They also are great with connecting with the audience. They have amazing projection when they do their dances.

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    Yes, the scores for both D/W and V/T were ridiculously inflated this early in the season. On the other hand, to call D/W lazy, unmotivated, or imply their resting on their laurels, does them a grave disservice. Whatever you might think of them, D/W could probably get away with the sobriquet The Hardest Working Team in Dance. They've been GUNNING for this Olympic season since about 14 seconds after the medal ceremony in Vancouver, so I think the last thing you can say is that they're resting on anything--let alone their laurels. In fact, I think a real danger with the FD is that they can OVERwork it--which is precisely what I thought they did with their Phantom program. As it is right now, it seems to me more of a watercolor study for a large oil painting, rather than the painting itself. I expect changes in the choreography. And no, they could never have done this program without doing their much maligned tango first. Phantom was all balls to the wall. This was, even in this early stage, far more *danced* than Phantom.

    I was surprised, however, at how well I thought Get Me to the Church on Time worked for their Finnstep. Oddly enough, I thought the one thing that section of their short dance lacked was something somewhat simple: smiles. And the entry into their final lift is quite wonderful. But I do think the first half of that program is a bit rough as it stands. I expect changes there as well. It's just how they operate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WeakAnkles View Post
    Yes, the scores for both D/W and V/T were ridiculously inflated this early in the season. On the other hand, to call D/W lazy, unmotivated, or imply their resting on their laurels, does them a grave disservice. Whatever you might think of them, D/W could probably get away with the sobriquet The Hardest Working Team in Dance. They've been GUNNING for this Olympic season since about 14 seconds after the medal ceremony in Vancouver, so I think the last thing you can say is that they're resting on anything--let alone their laurels. In fact, I think a real danger with the FD is that they can OVERwork it--which is precisely what I thought they did with their Phantom program. As it is right now, it seems to me more of a watercolor study for a large oil painting, rather than the painting itself. I expect changes in the choreography. And no, they could never have done this program without doing their much maligned tango first. Phantom was all balls to the wall. This was, even in this early stage, far more *danced* than Phantom.

    I was surprised, however, at how well I thought Get Me to the Church on Time worked for their Finnstep. Oddly enough, I thought the one thing that section of their short dance lacked was something somewhat simple: smiles. And the entry into their final lift is quite wonderful. But I do think the first half of that program is a bit rough as it stands. I expect changes there as well. It's just how they operate.
    I don't get why there is so much bad rap about their tango. For me, it was perfect by Worlds and they deserved their title. Could be the V&M-bots having sour grapes.

    Yes, their new LP is like watercolor painting. Their style and technique have evolved to be more subtle, but I still think raw power and athleticism suits them better. I think they're trying to be a bit like V&M with the subtlety and softness. I'm not sure about their new LP but by the Olympics, it could be wonderful. Still think the unwritten rule/responsibility to be innovative still rests on them as World Champions and one of the greatest ice dancers to walk the earth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Okay now on D/W live. They too were a class apart from the other competitors. Lots of speed, great ice coverage. And Giselle SD was extremely impressing to see when you're in the second row. They generate their own air conditioning when they do that polka because they are so crisp and fast!

    They also are great with connecting with the audience. They have amazing projection when they do their dances.
    Yes, compared to anyone in dance (other than possibly V/M who I have yet to see live) they have amazing speed and ice coverage. It is impossible to really understand till you've seen them live. I do think they seem faster on TV than most of the others, but in person it is like going from black and white to technicolor- and despite that they still get some of (if not the) highest levels.

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    Lazy and unmotivated are two words i would never associate with Meryl and Charlie.

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    As a D/W fan, I don't believe they will win gold this year. V/M's programs are excellent, and they still have OGM rep. Schez is ok, but I can't seem to get into My Fair Lady. I think both V/M's programs are better than D/W's. (But it's still the beginning of the season; maybe they will get better.) I never have liked the "romance style" but V/M have some pretty exciting lifts. I counted V/M as having more exciting acrobatic moments than D/W (of course this is not all that counts towards the score.) I can even admit that Scott has gotten extremely balletic-looking, where he and Tessa look almost equal.

    It has me worried, but the amount of ridicule, hand-wringing and attempting to counteract jinxes by saying that "D/W are going to win by politics! The season is over for V/M! Hmph!" is ridiculous. Let me just take a gander at some of the many fallacies:

    "D/W do the same tired warhorse music, lifts and programs."
    - Mahler 2.0 is the same program as 2010, down to the romance, dress, music nobody recognizes, and woe-is-me big eyes;
    - V/M fans did not have a problem when V/M skated to warhorse Carmen;
    - When was the last time V/M skated to Bollywood?
    - Both teams have elements that are used, re-used, invented, recycled, modified, etc. Who really cares if every element has been done or not done before?

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt K View Post
    I will hazard a guess that D/W have not been doing the 3-set twizzles because they would fall right off on the third set.
    And V/M don't do a hop into their twizzles because they would fall right off...

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    Quote Originally Posted by bramweld View Post
    You know you are probably the second person I've witnessed saying that D/W are better live than on video, so I'm starting to believe there might be some truth to that. Because to this day the bad leg line of Meryl's drives me nuts especially in the Giselle SD, so they must be better live than on video. Anyone would like to elaborate here?
    Over the years, I have come to a point that live performances don't take my breath away as much anymore - especially if I have seen the program on video already. However, if I get to see a performance live first - before I ever see a video - then it still impresses me. Those programs are almost always the ones I prefer and can help me appreciate a skater more, if I haven't before. I was very happy to see these new lifts live first. It will make the program one of my favorites. It's one of the reasons I'm so glad to be able to attend the Salt Lake Classic. It's such a great thing to see these programs live - first - before video. That said, if you don't like Meryl's leg line in video, you probably won't like it in person either.

    PLEASE - Can we leave Evan's work ethic out of this thread? PRETTY PLEASE??!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by A.H.Black View Post
    Over the years, I have come to a point that live performances don't take my breath away as much anymore - especially if I have seen the program on video already. However, if I get to see a performance live first - before I ever see a video - then it still impresses me. Those programs are almost always the ones I prefer and can help me appreciate a skater more, if I haven't before. I was very happy to see these new lifts live first. It will make the program one of my favorites. It's one of the reasons I'm so glad to be able to attend the Salt Lake Classic. It's such a great thing to see these programs live - first - before video. That said, if you don't like Meryl's leg line in video, you probably won't like it in person either.

    PLEASE - Can we leave Evan's work ethic out of this thread? PRETTY PLEASE??!!
    Evan. Evan.works.Evan.works.hard.Evan.Evan.

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    I don't think there are any "lazy" skaters who are serious competitive athletes. By the time one gets to Junior, the ones who are not serious, are not willing to put in the time, don't make good use of their time tend to get weeded out. Lazy doesn't apply to D/W, V/M, or any other serious skaters.

    I do think that D/W are more interested in the athletics of the sport and therefore are more strategic about their program choices. It's not about being "cutting edge" or "making a name with ground breaking programs", or even making sure there are radically new elements and choreography. It's about the medals. And COP today does not reward innovation as much as it should in my opinion, or new choreography, or new elements year over year, etc. V/M are more interested in how they are shaping the sport of ice dance, and therefore are making vastly different choices....especially the last couple of years. This culminated in the very unique and impressive piece of art and sport that was Carmen last year. But again, COP didn't reward their innovation and supreme quality of dance. If one compares the results of the 2 approaches, clearly the reward is not to push the sport, but to keep the status quo. I'm sure, in this Olympic year, we will see something much more mainstream from V/M because medals matter a little more to them this year, although I'm guessing it will still have their unique twist. Because the judges have been either too lazy or uneducated to really use GOE and especially PCS to distinguish these things, and both teams get pretty much the same PCS, there is no incentive for D/W to take any risks. That doesn't make them lazy. It makes them strategic. They are laser focused on their goals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bramweld View Post
    You know you are probably the second person I've witnessed saying that D/W are better live than on video, so I'm starting to believe there might be some truth to that. Because to this day the bad leg line of Meryl's drives me nuts especially in the Giselle SD, so they must be better live than on video. Anyone would like to elaborate here?
    I don't think there's much Meryl can do that she hasn't already. Their leg lines bother many fans with classical tastes. It used to bother me too. That is how her legs are anatomically and naturally shaped. Not everyone gets to have legs like Domnina.

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