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Thread: Is Davis and White's FD gold mdeal worthy? (i.e, Are they getting lazy and unmotivated?)

  1. #16
    Custom Title BlackPack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post
    I don't understand what a lot of people write about their Tango: it's my probably my favourite D/W program
    Same here... I thought it was a perfection expression of the tango, yet still faithful to their own personal style. The tango, Samson and Delilah, Borodin.... all magical. I was merely unhappy with their music choices in recent years (too safe, not enough experimenting), but no complaints about the quality of their skating and improvements - they are simply brilliant.

  2. #17
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    Lazy and unmotivated are two words i would never associate with Meryl and Charlie.

  3. #18
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    About seeing D/W live: they are incredible live. The speed, the precision, the energy--just unbelievable. At the Nationals in Omaha I was determined to take lots of pictures of ice dance, and with the high speed burst in my camera did indeed get some terrific pictures--except of Meryl and Charlie. They were simply too fast. All I got was a blurry image of Charlie's back and Meryl's face as they approached, and the next frame had nothing but a few strands of Meryl's hair as they had zoomed by From now on I won't even bother trying; I'll just sit back and enjoy the performance instead

  4. #19
    Custom Title demarinis5's Avatar
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    Thanks for changing the title of this thread.

    I think everything that D/W has done in the past 4 seasons is Gold worthy. Meryl and Charlie certainly don't rest on their laurels, they are still hungry. IMO Meryl and Charlie are going to be the team to beat at Sochi for Gold.

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    Crown them king and queen. Virtue and Moir will be a distant silver it would appear. But I do not think they or Evan are he hardest workers - there are a lot not just them.

  6. #21
    Custom Title BlackPack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    Crown them king and queen. Virtue and Moir will be a distant silver it would appear. But I do not think they or Evan are he hardest workers - there are a lot not just them.
    Hard to imagine someone who is more hard-working than Evan. There certainly could be; I just haven't heard about all the work ethic details of each skater. Carroll said that Evan would be on the ice for hours and hours on end. Frank would be so concerned that he'd send Evan home. It turns out that Evan merely drove to another rink to continue training, and this is LA where things are far. Mao is another workaholic. She would be on the ice for 6 hours and would continue despite advice to the contrary according to Arutyunyan. Personally, I believe in work smarter, not harder, and Michelle is one of those; she didn't overtrain her body when it wasn't feeling right according to Frank. No one gets to be an elite skater by slumming around, that's for sure. There are those who lucked out once in a while like Bowman by doing minimal training and relying on luck and improvisation, but there's no way any level of success can be maintained by just relying on luck.

    D&W's hard work is evident. Their hard work paid off, and they're smart workers. Some skaters can work hard till the moon comes to their doorstep, but you won't see that much improvement in their skating compared to D&W.

  7. #22
    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPack View Post
    Hard to imagine someone who is more hard-working than Evan. There certainly could be; I just haven't heard about all the work ethic details of each skater. Carroll said that Evan would be on the ice for hours and hours on end. Frank would be so concerned that he'd send Evan home. It turns out that Evan merely drove to another rink to continue training, and this is LA where things are far. Mao is another workaholic. She would be on the ice for 6 hours and would continue despite advice to the contrary according to Arutyunyan. Personally, I believe in work smarter, not harder, and Michelle is one of those; she didn't overtrain her body when it wasn't feeling right according to Frank. No one gets to be an elite skater by slumming around, that's for sure. There are those who lucked out once in a while like Bowman by doing minimal training and relying on luck and improvisation, but there's no way any level of success can be maintained by just relying on luck.

    D&W's hard work is evident. Their hard work paid off, and they're smart workers. Some skaters can work hard till the moon comes to their doorstep, but you won't see that much improvement in their skating compared to D&W.
    I have a friend who used to work at the rink where D&W practiced. According to him, they were on the ice every day before the coaches would get there and would warm-up and practice by themselves. Nothing so unusual about that, for sure. One day Marina came and they were doing twizzle sequences over and over. She basically kind of criticized them, telling them that they should be working on other things since their twizzles were already, essentially, the best, and Charlie said "but they're not our best, yet" and he and Meryl kept going. This has always stuck with me as an example of the kind of skaters they are. I'm not saying they necessarily work harder than others- I have no way to know that- but I am sure they work as hard as they can, and not only on the things that obviously need improvement (though they clearly do based on their growth) but also on those things that honestly don't need improvement in an attempt to make them even better- not just the best in the world, but their best regardless of whether or not that means the best. I think that (largely due to injury) this is a big part of how V&M have failed to keep up- they have been unable to improve the things about their skating that were already excellent, whereas D&W have been improving everything, bit by bit, to come to where they are not.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by tulosai View Post
    I have a friend who used to work at the rink where D&W practiced. According to him, they were on the ice every day before the coaches would get there and would warm-up and practice by themselves. Nothing so unusual about that, for sure. One day Marina came and they were doing twizzle sequences over and over. She basically kind of criticized them, telling them that they should be working on other things since their twizzles were already, essentially, the best, and Charlie said "but they're not our best, yet" and he and Meryl kept going. This has always stuck with me as an example of the kind of skaters they are. I'm not saying they necessarily work harder than others- I have no way to know that- but I am sure they work as hard as they can, and not only on the things that obviously need improvement (though they clearly do based on their growth) but also on those things that honestly don't need improvement in an attempt to make them even better- not just the best in the world, but their best regardless of whether or not that means the best. I think that (largely due to injury) this is a big part of how V&M have failed to keep up- they have been unable to improve the things about their skating that were already excellent, whereas D&W have been improving everything, bit by bit, to come to where they are not.
    In regards to their twizzles, I actully thought they looked weaker at NHT. I think they need to do 3 sets like some of the weaker twizzlers, as V&M's twizzles are doing 3 sets and also probably the 2nd best in the world.

  9. #24
    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPack View Post
    In regards to their twizzles, I actully thought they looked weaker at NHT. I think they need to do 3 sets like some of the weaker twizzlers, as V&M's twizzles are doing 3 sets and also probably the 2nd best in the world.
    Yeah this was a few years back. Moir actually sometimes seems to have a problem with Twizzles- he looks out of control to me and (I at least think he) falls or stumbles out of them at least once a season- more than someone of his caliber should.

  10. #25
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    First, Evan is perhaps the best at working the system - very smart. From getting a reknowned choreographer to try to make him look like an artist on ice, to get a well known designer and the list goes on - very smart. Arguably a different scoring system even with Brian Orser's errors in Calgary he may have beaten Boitano but reagardless Boitano was smart and milked the system and made himself appear like a champion - this is not innnate like Chan, Kim or D and W. My world of justice would see D and W rewarded for techno abilities but deducted somewhere for such safe music choices and a limited rane - though d and w fans will not like this. Their tango or things with extreme passion don't come off of them very well theatrically or genuine. Give them Disney love and that is their strength. They are disney skaters. Meryl the princess and Charlie the prince.

  11. #26
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    I'm frankly so tired of the "Evan works harder than anyone else" mantra. How does Frank or anyone else know what the other skaters do or don't do? For starters: on-ice training is not the only training the skaters do, so spending six hours on the ice (which doesn't sounds smart, to be honest) may be another skater's 3-4 hrs on the ice plus 2-3 hrs of whatever off-ice conditioning they do. This is not to say Evan or D/W are not hard workers--but every single skater who has reached the podium in the Worlds, or even Nationals in countries with many top level skaters--has worked extremely hard. There may be years when life throws a curve ball at an athlete--they may struggle with a changing body, or have personal problems and thus lose some focus and motivation. Athletes are human, after all. If they come back an reach the podium again a year or two later, however, you can bet they've worked their butt off to get there! So please, can we just agree that the top skaters all work very, very hard?

    End of rant. And go Meryl and Charlie!

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matilda View Post
    I'm frankly so tired of the "Evan works harder than anyone else" mantra. How does Frank or anyone else know what the other skaters do or don't do? For starters: on-ice training is not the only training the skaters do, so spending six hours on the ice (which doesn't sounds smart, to be honest) may be another skater's 3-4 hrs on the ice plus 2-3 hrs of whatever off-ice conditioning they do. This is not to say Evan or D/W are not hard workers--but every single skater who has reached the podium in the Worlds, or even Nationals in countries with many top level skaters--has worked extremely hard. There may be years when life throws a curve ball at an athlete--they may struggle with a changing body, or have personal problems and thus lose some focus and motivation. Athletes are human, after all. If they come back an reach the podium again a year or two later, however, you can bet they've worked their butt off to get there! So please, can we just agree that the top skaters all work very, very hard?

    End of rant. And go Meryl and Charlie!
    Evan is a yoga fanatic as well. He does tons of off-ice training. And as mentioned, he is very smart at working not only the skating system, but in life in general. Excluding Yuna and Mao, how many have reached in recent memory his financial success especially with the decline of North American pro skating? But you're talking about Frank who has observed hundreds, possibly thousands, of skaters in his lifetime. If somebody stands out due to some quality to Frank, you can bet it's worth looking at. He is a frank man, true to his name. He isn't prone to exaggeration. He may have opinions which people may not agree with, but he is known to be honest and level-headed in his many assessments. This isn't like Sokolova claiming that her students are going to be OGM. That all said, I'm not an Evan fan.

    I don't think anyone here has said that elite skaters are lazy. That is an oxymoron. Elite and lazy don't go together. Just some do stand out more than others and that some people's work ethic have garnered more success than others. If you want to help your favorite skaters do well, then it's worth trying to identify the elements that led to their success. Even skaters known to have skewed work ethic such as Bowman, Bobek, Baiul, etc. still worked much harder than the average person in their peak years. However, their level still wasn't enough to stay at the top. There are competitors who are hungrier and will work harder than hard.

    I remember reading Domnina and Shabalin's diary somewhere years ago. Hours on the ice, hours on choreography on the floor, hours on conditioning. But their results? Mixed, 2 Euro Champs, 1 World, Olympic bronze... they had the momentum to win OGM at one point, but Shabs' injury, their inevitable decreased training, and horrid Linichuk programs destroyed their chances. They had the goods but couldn't keep it up. So I don't think they're an example of worker smarter, not harder.

    D&W is worker smarter, work harder. And it shows.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by bramweld View Post
    You know you are probably the second person I've witnessed saying that D/W are better live than on video, so I'm starting to believe there might be some truth to that. Because to this day the bad leg line of Meryl's drives me nuts especially in the Giselle SD, so they must be better live than on video. Anyone would like to elaborate here?
    Over the years, I have come to a point that live performances don't take my breath away as much anymore - especially if I have seen the program on video already. However, if I get to see a performance live first - before I ever see a video - then it still impresses me. Those programs are almost always the ones I prefer and can help me appreciate a skater more, if I haven't before. I was very happy to see these new lifts live first. It will make the program one of my favorites. It's one of the reasons I'm so glad to be able to attend the Salt Lake Classic. It's such a great thing to see these programs live - first - before video. That said, if you don't like Meryl's leg line in video, you probably won't like it in person either.

    PLEASE - Can we leave Evan's work ethic out of this thread? PRETTY PLEASE??!!

  14. #29
    Custom Title BlackPack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A.H.Black View Post
    Over the years, I have come to a point that live performances don't take my breath away as much anymore - especially if I have seen the program on video already. However, if I get to see a performance live first - before I ever see a video - then it still impresses me. Those programs are almost always the ones I prefer and can help me appreciate a skater more, if I haven't before. I was very happy to see these new lifts live first. It will make the program one of my favorites. It's one of the reasons I'm so glad to be able to attend the Salt Lake Classic. It's such a great thing to see these programs live - first - before video. That said, if you don't like Meryl's leg line in video, you probably won't like it in person either.

    PLEASE - Can we leave Evan's work ethic out of this thread? PRETTY PLEASE??!!
    Evan. Evan.works.Evan.works.hard.Evan.Evan.

  15. #30
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    I don't think there are any "lazy" skaters who are serious competitive athletes. By the time one gets to Junior, the ones who are not serious, are not willing to put in the time, don't make good use of their time tend to get weeded out. Lazy doesn't apply to D/W, V/M, or any other serious skaters.

    I do think that D/W are more interested in the athletics of the sport and therefore are more strategic about their program choices. It's not about being "cutting edge" or "making a name with ground breaking programs", or even making sure there are radically new elements and choreography. It's about the medals. And COP today does not reward innovation as much as it should in my opinion, or new choreography, or new elements year over year, etc. V/M are more interested in how they are shaping the sport of ice dance, and therefore are making vastly different choices....especially the last couple of years. This culminated in the very unique and impressive piece of art and sport that was Carmen last year. But again, COP didn't reward their innovation and supreme quality of dance. If one compares the results of the 2 approaches, clearly the reward is not to push the sport, but to keep the status quo. I'm sure, in this Olympic year, we will see something much more mainstream from V/M because medals matter a little more to them this year, although I'm guessing it will still have their unique twist. Because the judges have been either too lazy or uneducated to really use GOE and especially PCS to distinguish these things, and both teams get pretty much the same PCS, there is no incentive for D/W to take any risks. That doesn't make them lazy. It makes them strategic. They are laser focused on their goals.

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