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Thread: Is Davis and White's FD gold mdeal worthy? (i.e, Are they getting lazy and unmotivated?)

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDancers View Post
    I don't think there are any "lazy" skaters who are serious competitive athletes. By the time one gets to Junior, the ones who are not serious, are not willing to put in the time, don't make good use of their time tend to get weeded out. Lazy doesn't apply to D/W, V/M, or any other serious skaters.

    I do think that D/W are more interested in the athletics of the sport and therefore are more strategic about their program choices. It's not about being "cutting edge" or "making a name with ground breaking programs", or even making sure there are radically new elements and choreography. It's about the medals. And COP today does not reward innovation as much as it should in my opinion, or new choreography, or new elements year over year, etc. V/M are more interested in how they are shaping the sport of ice dance, and therefore are making vastly different choices....especially the last couple of years. This culminated in the very unique and impressive piece of art and sport that was Carmen last year. But again, COP didn't reward their innovation and supreme quality of dance. If one compares the results of the 2 approaches, clearly the reward is not to push the sport, but to keep the status quo. I'm sure, in this Olympic year, we will see something much more mainstream from V/M because medals matter a little more to them this year, although I'm guessing it will still have their unique twist. Because the judges have been either too lazy or uneducated to really use GOE and especially PCS to distinguish these things, and both teams get pretty much the same PCS, there is no incentive for D/W to take any risks. That doesn't make them lazy. It makes them strategic. They are laser focused on their goals.
    I can't agree more. And how is it fair that creativity is not rewarded? I hope the judges can remember it's ice dancing they are judging, not ice speeding. There is music involved, not just put a few element together to call it a program. The big program with D/W's FD is the story-telling. They chose to base their FD on the most well-known story, so it should be an easy job. Turn out people are not even sure who White is playing, let alone what kind of relation the pair are trying to show in this program. How do you expect the audience to get into that then?

  2. #32
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    This program is unmusical. And they're not even trying to hide their lack of body awareness and in-between connection it's almost funny.

    Ultimately the medal is more about what they are as skaters and dancers than about their programs. Even if they have the best programs in the world -- they don't anyway, W/P already have superior programs as they did last season, does their "Humanity in Motion" performance deserve gold in the free skate at 13 Worlds? Nope. -- they are not the ice dancers in the world regardless of what bucketloads of 10s on components want me to believe.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDancers View Post
    I don't think there are any "lazy" skaters who are serious competitive athletes. By the time one gets to Junior, the ones who are not serious, are not willing to put in the time, don't make good use of their time tend to get weeded out. Lazy doesn't apply to D/W, V/M, or any other serious skaters.

    I do think that D/W are more interested in the athletics of the sport and therefore are more strategic about their program choices. It's not about being "cutting edge" or "making a name with ground breaking programs", or even making sure there are radically new elements and choreography. It's about the medals. And COP today does not reward innovation as much as it should in my opinion, or new choreography, or new elements year over year, etc. V/M are more interested in how they are shaping the sport of ice dance, and therefore are making vastly different choices....especially the last couple of years. This culminated in the very unique and impressive piece of art and sport that was Carmen last year. But again, COP didn't reward their innovation and supreme quality of dance. If one compares the results of the 2 approaches, clearly the reward is not to push the sport, but to keep the status quo. I'm sure, in this Olympic year, we will see something much more mainstream from V/M because medals matter a little more to them this year, although I'm guessing it will still have their unique twist. Because the judges have been either too lazy or uneducated to really use GOE and especially PCS to distinguish these things, and both teams get pretty much the same PCS, there is no incentive for D/W to take any risks. That doesn't make them lazy. It makes them strategic. They are laser focused on their goals.
    I disagree that V&M's Carmen is cutting edge or pushing the envelope. Carmen in black and crotch-grabbing are why people think it's a "modern" interpretation. V&M's 2012 program is one of their weakest and most boring. D&W can skate to classics and people complain, but when V&M do the same, it's art. A bit unfair.

  4. #34
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    From the USOC Media Summit in Park City, Utah

    Quote from ESPN article by Bonnie D. Ford
    Davis and White say it wouldn't be "healthy" to focus on the Olympic gold medal itself, and manage to be convincing when they talk about refining their already superlative chemistry.
    "When we won worlds in 2011, one of the things that helped us [defend] is that we didn't say, 'Let's continue at this level and expect the same results,"' White said. "Our expectations go beyond any given placement ... staying in character from beginning to end, and keeping everyone enthralled."

    Quote from The LA Times article by Helene Elliott
    They’re pleased with their own progress so far this season and say they’re focusing on getting better, rather than obsessing over the gold medal. That’s part of what makes them entertaining to watch: They’re great technical skaters and terrific performers who have advanced a discipline that had been mocked for its over-the-top costumes and music. And, often, those criticisms were justified.
    “I think we just know that allowing ourselves to just linger on the idea of a potential medal, focusing on a gold medal, it’s not healthy for us at this point,” Davis said. “We’re focused on what it is we can do to improve our training, improve what it is we’re putting onto the ice, that I feel we kind of have that comfort zone of focusing on the training without getting too far ahead of ourselves.”
    White echoed that.
    “When we won the championships in 2011 one of the things that helped us was not saying, ‘Oh, we’re world champions, let’s just continue at this level and expect the same result,’” he said. “Our expectations for ourselves go above our placement in any given competition ….
    “From beginning to the end of the program, staying in character and keeping everyone enthralled with not just the elements or the speed or anything in particular but just the overall feel of the program: I think that’s where we’ve really taken off and I think what is going to make this a really special year.’’

  5. #35
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    i think this program is stunning. i haven't seen anything from V/M and i already know they're the ones to catch. i can already see they ARE going to peak this season. i remember reading an article on IN a little while back, and one of them said (don't remember if it was meryl or charlie) that they know they have a lot to improve on this program and a lot of work to do. but this is so OGM worthy. i will see them live at skate america and am really looking forward to seeing the improvement live from 09 nationals.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by bramweld View Post
    You know you are probably the second person I've witnessed saying that D/W are better live than on video, so I'm starting to believe there might be some truth to that. Because to this day the bad leg line of Meryl's drives me nuts especially in the Giselle SD, so they must be better live than on video. Anyone would like to elaborate here?
    I don't think there's much Meryl can do that she hasn't already. Their leg lines bother many fans with classical tastes. It used to bother me too. That is how her legs are anatomically and naturally shaped. Not everyone gets to have legs like Domnina.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPack View Post
    Evan is a yoga fanatic as well. He does tons of off-ice training. And as mentioned, he is very smart at working not only the skating system, but in life in general. Excluding Yuna and Mao, how many have reached in recent memory his financial success especially with the decline of North American pro skating? But you're talking about Frank who has observed hundreds, possibly thousands, of skaters in his lifetime. If somebody stands out due to some quality to Frank, you can bet it's worth looking at. He is a frank man, true to his name. He isn't prone to exaggeration. He may have opinions which people may not agree with, but he is known to be honest and level-headed in his many assessments. This isn't like Sokolova claiming that her students are going to be OGM. That all said, I'm not an Evan fan.

    I don't think anyone here has said that elite skaters are lazy. That is an oxymoron. Elite and lazy don't go together. Just some do stand out more than others and that some people's work ethic have garnered more success than others. If you want to help your favorite skaters do well, then it's worth trying to identify the elements that led to their success. Even skaters known to have skewed work ethic such as Bowman, Bobek, Baiul, etc. still worked much harder than the average person in their peak years. However, their level still wasn't enough to stay at the top. There are competitors who are hungrier and will work harder than hard.

    I remember reading Domnina and Shabalin's diary somewhere years ago. Hours on the ice, hours on choreography on the floor, hours on conditioning. But their results? Mixed, 2 Euro Champs, 1 World, Olympic bronze... they had the momentum to win OGM at one point, but Shabs' injury, their inevitable decreased training, and horrid Linichuk programs destroyed their chances. They had the goods but couldn't keep it up. So I don't think they're an example of worker smarter, not harder.

    D&W is worker smarter, work harder. And it shows.
    Okay it is pretty apparent who some people are cheering for but let's be fair for goodness sake. Domshabs was one of the saddest situation - a team that was doomed due to his knees It had nothing to do with talent or programs it was sadly physical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bramweld View Post
    You know you are probably the second person I've witnessed saying that D/W are better live than on video, so I'm starting to believe there might be some truth to that. Because to this day the bad leg line of Meryl's drives me nuts especially in the Giselle SD, so they must be better live than on video. Anyone would like to elaborate here?
    I'm extremely partial to Davis & White, but I like the skating of Virtue & Moir equally, sometimes more. The latter pair usually has more charisma and artistry ("Carmen" not so), but DW have more speed and athleticism. I agree regarding Meryl's leg line, but I'm beginning to believe it has something to do with their coaching, because I notice the same with Tessa. There were a couple of moves in Carmen when Tessa's leg movements were very ungainly. However, Tessa seems to have the edge on upper body movement and overall expressive moves. And Scott is the most skilled ice dancer in competitive skating, male or female. That being said, the Olympic Virtue/Moir Mahler FD has never been equalled in my opinion. I relish the approaching Grand Prix Series and , hopefully, the GP Final where these two teams meet head-on for the first time this season.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moment View Post
    This program is unmusical. And they're not even trying to hide their lack of body awareness and in-between connection it's almost funny.

    Ultimately the medal is more about what they are as skaters and dancers than about their programs. Even if they have the best programs in the world -- they don't anyway, W/P already have superior programs as they did last season, does their "Humanity in Motion" performance deserve gold in the free skate at 13 Worlds? Nope. -- they are not the ice dancers in the world regardless of what bucketloads of 10s on components want me to believe.
    You're talking about Davis/White right? Okay got it. For a moment i was confused since when W/P got 10s.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    Okay it is pretty apparent who some people are cheering for but let's be fair for goodness sake. Domshabs was one of the saddest situation - a team that was doomed due to his knees It had nothing to do with talent or programs it was sadly physical.
    At risk of going off-topic, yes, they were tragic, and Max's knees affected everything severely, but I still think the quality of skating was very high despite weak to average twizzles and spins. Their ice coverage, power, and speed was in a class of their own. Their Tango Romantica is probably the definitive textbook interpretation of that CD. If only their programs did them justice, they would have challenged V&M and D&W in 2010. I don't think you even get what I'm saying at all. DomShabs were my favorite and I was very sad when they couldn't be OGM. DomShabs are probably the last classical Russian ice dancers from the old era, as they also had the bodies for it. B&S and I&K are, like everyone else, throwing fine lines and posture to the wind, since it's no longer rewarded. COP has changed everything, especially the look that older skating fans value. Meryl doesn't have great leg lines due to genetics mostly. Still think she and Charlie can have better matching leg lines at times.

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    I'd rate V/M higher than D/W in aspects of artistic interpretation and basic skating technique (edging, power, ability to generate speed effortlessly).

    D/W seem to have more of a COP style of ice dance that works well with the judges, but for me, they do not a single quality that really puts them above V/M. (I've watched both pairs since even before the last Olympic Games til now so I am familiar with both couples' work).

    Just my 2 cents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPack View Post
    I disagree that V&M's Carmen is cutting edge or pushing the envelope. Carmen in black and crotch-grabbing are why people think it's a "modern" interpretation. V&M's 2012 program is one of their weakest and most boring. D&W can skate to classics and people complain, but when V&M do the same, it's art. A bit unfair.
    You are entitled to your opinion. It isn't shared by many of the skaters/fellow competitors themselves, past or present, or other coaches, or many fans. Some people did not understand the concept or art of Carmen, or perhaps didn't want to. These are normally the same people who don't watch, understand or appreciate modern dance on the floor. V/M Carmen was groundbreaking because it really worked to take the principles of real dance on the floor and stage and bring it to the ice. It was likely the most difficult program ever done on ice. It was executed with incredible lines, attention to detail, speed, power, emotion, .... It was the closest thing I've ever seen to marrying ice dance into art and sport. It really transcended COP, which is evidenced by how it was and wasn't judged throughout the season. They proved that COP does not need to be formulaic, and only about elements. There is nothing wrong skating to classics. People complain about D/W sometimes because they do re-use many concepts, stylings and yes, elements. I don't blame them. They are staying with what they know, doing it well, and racking up the points. When V/M skate, to me, it really is art, from unique choreography, new elements, and attention to all the details from the top of their heads to the tips of their fingers and toes. Their lines, expressions, everything is so in sync. They are truly once in a generation team. D/W are fantastic skaters and great athletes. I like watching them. They are very nice people. My favourite programs of theirs would have to be Bollywood and Samson. But for me, V/M are the perfect combo of sport and art, real dancers. And for me, this is ice DANCE.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDancers View Post
    You are entitled to your opinion. It isn't shared by many of the skaters/fellow competitors themselves, past or present, or other coaches, or many fans. Some people did not understand the concept or art of Carmen, or perhaps didn't want to. These are normally the same people who don't watch, understand or appreciate modern dance on the floor. V/M Carmen was groundbreaking because it really worked to take the principles of real dance on the floor and stage and bring it to the ice. It was likely the most difficult program ever done on ice. It was executed with incredible lines, attention to detail, speed, power, emotion, .... It was the closest thing I've ever seen to marrying ice dance into art and sport. It really transcended COP, which is evidenced by how it was and wasn't judged throughout the season. They proved that COP does not need to be formulaic, and only about elements. There is nothing wrong skating to classics. People complain about D/W sometimes because they do re-use many concepts, stylings and yes, elements. I don't blame them. They are staying with what they know, doing it well, and racking up the points. When V/M skate, to me, it really is art, from unique choreography, new elements, and attention to all the details from the top of their heads to the tips of their fingers and toes. Their lines, expressions, everything is so in sync. They are truly once in a generation team. D/W are fantastic skaters and great athletes. I like watching them. They are very nice people. My favourite programs of theirs would have to be Bollywood and Samson. But for me, V/M are the perfect combo of sport and art, real dancers. And for me, this is ice DANCE.
    I didn't find VM's Carmen to be much more innovative and "modern" than K&O's. I have seen many mixed reactions to VM's Carmen. Some swear by it, others don't. Based on the opinions I've read and heard, it's about 50/50 positive to unsure/negative. The numbers are out there. Your perceived weaknesses of DW are similar to what criticisms against VM are; repeated stylistic choices and themes. What makes a skater's style is also what people usually criticize them for. Again, if you know so much about modern dance - what exactly is so "modern" and cutting edge? What moves that we haven't seen by others in the past? Generalities upon generalities don't convince anyone.

  14. #44
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    Torvill and Dean....need I say more?

  15. #45
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    NorthernDancers ...That was well said.

    What can I say ? D/W's program will be OG worthy if they skate best on the day and if V/M's program is not received any better.. Having said that, this program doesn't thrill me. I suppose I like it better than I feared I would when I first heard about it. My fear was that they'd try to shoehorn Charlie into the Golden Slave role , with all it's attendant lust and seductiveness, and frankly, I worried it might be like the orchestrated "Connection" intro to last year's program, and fall completely flat.

    There are, as usual , some very, very nice unique elements in the program . And it's still very early in the season , but so far those elements stand out individually , for me, instead of growing out of the dance..This could change as the season progresses.. However, Charlie doesn't really seem like the Sultan to me either,I feel no air of command.. so I don't know where that's going.. Of course , I expect them to give their all, and skate the program very well.. They can't be faulted in that regard.

    I just don't find the program very thrilling right now. I think the program itself is beatable..and I have to echo others in that as far as translating dance onto ice goes V/M really are peerless , today. But we know that isn't always rewarded as much as it could be , and innumerable circumstances on any particular day can make a huge difference.

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