Is Davis and White's FD gold mdeal worthy? (i.e, Are they getting lazy and unmotivated?) | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Is Davis and White's FD gold mdeal worthy? (i.e, Are they getting lazy and unmotivated?)

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Crown them king and queen. Virtue and Moir will be a distant silver it would appear. But I do not think they or Evan are he hardest workers - there are a lot not just them.

Hard to imagine someone who is more hard-working than Evan. There certainly could be; I just haven't heard about all the work ethic details of each skater. Carroll said that Evan would be on the ice for hours and hours on end. Frank would be so concerned that he'd send Evan home. It turns out that Evan merely drove to another rink to continue training, and this is LA where things are far. Mao is another workaholic. She would be on the ice for 6 hours and would continue despite advice to the contrary according to Arutyunyan. Personally, I believe in work smarter, not harder, and Michelle is one of those; she didn't overtrain her body when it wasn't feeling right according to Frank. No one gets to be an elite skater by slumming around, that's for sure. There are those who lucked out once in a while like Bowman by doing minimal training and relying on luck and improvisation, but there's no way any level of success can be maintained by just relying on luck.

D&W's hard work is evident. Their hard work paid off, and they're smart workers. Some skaters can work hard till the moon comes to their doorstep, but you won't see that much improvement in their skating compared to D&W.
 

tulosai

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 21, 2011
Hard to imagine someone who is more hard-working than Evan. There certainly could be; I just haven't heard about all the work ethic details of each skater. Carroll said that Evan would be on the ice for hours and hours on end. Frank would be so concerned that he'd send Evan home. It turns out that Evan merely drove to another rink to continue training, and this is LA where things are far. Mao is another workaholic. She would be on the ice for 6 hours and would continue despite advice to the contrary according to Arutyunyan. Personally, I believe in work smarter, not harder, and Michelle is one of those; she didn't overtrain her body when it wasn't feeling right according to Frank. No one gets to be an elite skater by slumming around, that's for sure. There are those who lucked out once in a while like Bowman by doing minimal training and relying on luck and improvisation, but there's no way any level of success can be maintained by just relying on luck.

D&W's hard work is evident. Their hard work paid off, and they're smart workers. Some skaters can work hard till the moon comes to their doorstep, but you won't see that much improvement in their skating compared to D&W.

I have a friend who used to work at the rink where D&W practiced. According to him, they were on the ice every day before the coaches would get there and would warm-up and practice by themselves. Nothing so unusual about that, for sure. One day Marina came and they were doing twizzle sequences over and over. She basically kind of criticized them, telling them that they should be working on other things since their twizzles were already, essentially, the best, and Charlie said "but they're not our best, yet" and he and Meryl kept going. This has always stuck with me as an example of the kind of skaters they are. I'm not saying they necessarily work harder than others- I have no way to know that- but I am sure they work as hard as they can, and not only on the things that obviously need improvement (though they clearly do based on their growth) but also on those things that honestly don't need improvement in an attempt to make them even better- not just the best in the world, but their best regardless of whether or not that means the best. I think that (largely due to injury) this is a big part of how V&M have failed to keep up- they have been unable to improve the things about their skating that were already excellent, whereas D&W have been improving everything, bit by bit, to come to where they are not.
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
I have a friend who used to work at the rink where D&W practiced. According to him, they were on the ice every day before the coaches would get there and would warm-up and practice by themselves. Nothing so unusual about that, for sure. One day Marina came and they were doing twizzle sequences over and over. She basically kind of criticized them, telling them that they should be working on other things since their twizzles were already, essentially, the best, and Charlie said "but they're not our best, yet" and he and Meryl kept going. This has always stuck with me as an example of the kind of skaters they are. I'm not saying they necessarily work harder than others- I have no way to know that- but I am sure they work as hard as they can, and not only on the things that obviously need improvement (though they clearly do based on their growth) but also on those things that honestly don't need improvement in an attempt to make them even better- not just the best in the world, but their best regardless of whether or not that means the best. I think that (largely due to injury) this is a big part of how V&M have failed to keep up- they have been unable to improve the things about their skating that were already excellent, whereas D&W have been improving everything, bit by bit, to come to where they are not.

In regards to their twizzles, I actully thought they looked weaker at NHT. I think they need to do 3 sets like some of the weaker twizzlers, as V&M's twizzles are doing 3 sets and also probably the 2nd best in the world.
 

tulosai

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 21, 2011
In regards to their twizzles, I actully thought they looked weaker at NHT. I think they need to do 3 sets like some of the weaker twizzlers, as V&M's twizzles are doing 3 sets and also probably the 2nd best in the world.

Yeah this was a few years back. Moir actually sometimes seems to have a problem with Twizzles- he looks out of control to me and (I at least think he) falls or stumbles out of them at least once a season- more than someone of his caliber should.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
First, Evan is perhaps the best at working the system - very smart. From getting a reknowned choreographer to try to make him look like an artist on ice, to get a well known designer and the list goes on - very smart. Arguably a different scoring system even with Brian Orser's errors in Calgary he may have beaten Boitano but reagardless Boitano was smart and milked the system and made himself appear like a champion - this is not innnate like Chan, Kim or D and W. My world of justice would see D and W rewarded for techno abilities but deducted somewhere for such safe music choices and a limited rane - though d and w fans will not like this. Their tango or things with extreme passion don't come off of them very well theatrically or genuine. Give them Disney love and that is their strength. They are disney skaters. Meryl the princess and Charlie the prince.
 

Matilda

Medalist
Joined
Dec 19, 2012
I'm frankly so tired of the "Evan works harder than anyone else" mantra. How does Frank or anyone else know what the other skaters do or don't do? For starters: on-ice training is not the only training the skaters do, so spending six hours on the ice (which doesn't sounds smart, to be honest) may be another skater's 3-4 hrs on the ice plus 2-3 hrs of whatever off-ice conditioning they do. This is not to say Evan or D/W are not hard workers--but every single skater who has reached the podium in the Worlds, or even Nationals in countries with many top level skaters--has worked extremely hard. There may be years when life throws a curve ball at an athlete--they may struggle with a changing body, or have personal problems and thus lose some focus and motivation. Athletes are human, after all. If they come back an reach the podium again a year or two later, however, you can bet they've worked their butt off to get there! So please, can we just agree that the top skaters all work very, very hard?

End of rant. And go Meryl and Charlie! :)
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
I'm frankly so tired of the "Evan works harder than anyone else" mantra. How does Frank or anyone else know what the other skaters do or don't do? For starters: on-ice training is not the only training the skaters do, so spending six hours on the ice (which doesn't sounds smart, to be honest) may be another skater's 3-4 hrs on the ice plus 2-3 hrs of whatever off-ice conditioning they do. This is not to say Evan or D/W are not hard workers--but every single skater who has reached the podium in the Worlds, or even Nationals in countries with many top level skaters--has worked extremely hard. There may be years when life throws a curve ball at an athlete--they may struggle with a changing body, or have personal problems and thus lose some focus and motivation. Athletes are human, after all. If they come back an reach the podium again a year or two later, however, you can bet they've worked their butt off to get there! So please, can we just agree that the top skaters all work very, very hard?

End of rant. And go Meryl and Charlie! :)

Evan is a yoga fanatic as well. He does tons of off-ice training. And as mentioned, he is very smart at working not only the skating system, but in life in general. Excluding Yuna and Mao, how many have reached in recent memory his financial success especially with the decline of North American pro skating? But you're talking about Frank who has observed hundreds, possibly thousands, of skaters in his lifetime. If somebody stands out due to some quality to Frank, you can bet it's worth looking at. He is a frank man, true to his name. He isn't prone to exaggeration. He may have opinions which people may not agree with, but he is known to be honest and level-headed in his many assessments. This isn't like Sokolova claiming that her students are going to be OGM. That all said, I'm not an Evan fan.

I don't think anyone here has said that elite skaters are lazy. That is an oxymoron. Elite and lazy don't go together. Just some do stand out more than others and that some people's work ethic have garnered more success than others. If you want to help your favorite skaters do well, then it's worth trying to identify the elements that led to their success. Even skaters known to have skewed work ethic such as Bowman, Bobek, Baiul, etc. still worked much harder than the average person in their peak years. However, their level still wasn't enough to stay at the top. There are competitors who are hungrier and will work harder than hard.

I remember reading Domnina and Shabalin's diary somewhere years ago. Hours on the ice, hours on choreography on the floor, hours on conditioning. But their results? Mixed, 2 Euro Champs, 1 World, Olympic bronze... they had the momentum to win OGM at one point, but Shabs' injury, their inevitable decreased training, and horrid Linichuk programs destroyed their chances. They had the goods but couldn't keep it up. So I don't think they're an example of worker smarter, not harder.

D&W is worker smarter, work harder. And it shows.
 

A.H.Black

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 1, 2004
You know you are probably the second person I've witnessed saying that D/W are better live than on video, so I'm starting to believe there might be some truth to that. Because to this day the bad leg line of Meryl's drives me nuts especially in the Giselle SD, so they must be better live than on video. Anyone would like to elaborate here?

Over the years, I have come to a point that live performances don't take my breath away as much anymore - especially if I have seen the program on video already. However, if I get to see a performance live first - before I ever see a video - then it still impresses me. Those programs are almost always the ones I prefer and can help me appreciate a skater more, if I haven't before. I was very happy to see these new lifts live first. It will make the program one of my favorites. It's one of the reasons I'm so glad to be able to attend the Salt Lake Classic. It's such a great thing to see these programs live - first - before video. That said, if you don't like Meryl's leg line in video, you probably won't like it in person either.

PLEASE - Can we leave Evan's work ethic out of this thread? PRETTY PLEASE??!!
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Over the years, I have come to a point that live performances don't take my breath away as much anymore - especially if I have seen the program on video already. However, if I get to see a performance live first - before I ever see a video - then it still impresses me. Those programs are almost always the ones I prefer and can help me appreciate a skater more, if I haven't before. I was very happy to see these new lifts live first. It will make the program one of my favorites. It's one of the reasons I'm so glad to be able to attend the Salt Lake Classic. It's such a great thing to see these programs live - first - before video. That said, if you don't like Meryl's leg line in video, you probably won't like it in person either.

PLEASE - Can we leave Evan's work ethic out of this thread? PRETTY PLEASE??!!

Evan. Evan.works.Evan.works.hard.Evan.Evan. ;)
 

NorthernDancers

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
I don't think there are any "lazy" skaters who are serious competitive athletes. By the time one gets to Junior, the ones who are not serious, are not willing to put in the time, don't make good use of their time tend to get weeded out. Lazy doesn't apply to D/W, V/M, or any other serious skaters.

I do think that D/W are more interested in the athletics of the sport and therefore are more strategic about their program choices. It's not about being "cutting edge" or "making a name with ground breaking programs", or even making sure there are radically new elements and choreography. It's about the medals. And COP today does not reward innovation as much as it should in my opinion, or new choreography, or new elements year over year, etc. V/M are more interested in how they are shaping the sport of ice dance, and therefore are making vastly different choices....especially the last couple of years. This culminated in the very unique and impressive piece of art and sport that was Carmen last year. But again, COP didn't reward their innovation and supreme quality of dance. If one compares the results of the 2 approaches, clearly the reward is not to push the sport, but to keep the status quo. I'm sure, in this Olympic year, we will see something much more mainstream from V/M because medals matter a little more to them this year, although I'm guessing it will still have their unique twist. Because the judges have been either too lazy or uneducated to really use GOE and especially PCS to distinguish these things, and both teams get pretty much the same PCS, there is no incentive for D/W to take any risks. That doesn't make them lazy. It makes them strategic. They are laser focused on their goals.
 

apple123

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 13, 2010
I don't think there are any "lazy" skaters who are serious competitive athletes. By the time one gets to Junior, the ones who are not serious, are not willing to put in the time, don't make good use of their time tend to get weeded out. Lazy doesn't apply to D/W, V/M, or any other serious skaters.

I do think that D/W are more interested in the athletics of the sport and therefore are more strategic about their program choices. It's not about being "cutting edge" or "making a name with ground breaking programs", or even making sure there are radically new elements and choreography. It's about the medals. And COP today does not reward innovation as much as it should in my opinion, or new choreography, or new elements year over year, etc. V/M are more interested in how they are shaping the sport of ice dance, and therefore are making vastly different choices....especially the last couple of years. This culminated in the very unique and impressive piece of art and sport that was Carmen last year. But again, COP didn't reward their innovation and supreme quality of dance. If one compares the results of the 2 approaches, clearly the reward is not to push the sport, but to keep the status quo. I'm sure, in this Olympic year, we will see something much more mainstream from V/M because medals matter a little more to them this year, although I'm guessing it will still have their unique twist. Because the judges have been either too lazy or uneducated to really use GOE and especially PCS to distinguish these things, and both teams get pretty much the same PCS, there is no incentive for D/W to take any risks. That doesn't make them lazy. It makes them strategic. They are laser focused on their goals.

I can't agree more. And how is it fair that creativity is not rewarded? I hope the judges can remember it's ice dancing they are judging, not ice speeding. There is music involved, not just put a few element together to call it a program. The big program with D/W's FD is the story-telling. They chose to base their FD on the most well-known story, so it should be an easy job. Turn out people are not even sure who White is playing, let alone what kind of relation the pair are trying to show in this program. How do you expect the audience to get into that then?
 

Moment

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 18, 2013
This program is unmusical. And they're not even trying to hide their lack of body awareness and in-between connection it's almost funny.

Ultimately the medal is more about what they are as skaters and dancers than about their programs. Even if they have the best programs in the world -- they don't anyway, W/P already have superior programs as they did last season, does their "Humanity in Motion" performance deserve gold in the free skate at 13 Worlds? Nope. -- they are not the ice dancers in the world regardless of what bucketloads of 10s on components want me to believe.
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
I don't think there are any "lazy" skaters who are serious competitive athletes. By the time one gets to Junior, the ones who are not serious, are not willing to put in the time, don't make good use of their time tend to get weeded out. Lazy doesn't apply to D/W, V/M, or any other serious skaters.

I do think that D/W are more interested in the athletics of the sport and therefore are more strategic about their program choices. It's not about being "cutting edge" or "making a name with ground breaking programs", or even making sure there are radically new elements and choreography. It's about the medals. And COP today does not reward innovation as much as it should in my opinion, or new choreography, or new elements year over year, etc. V/M are more interested in how they are shaping the sport of ice dance, and therefore are making vastly different choices....especially the last couple of years. This culminated in the very unique and impressive piece of art and sport that was Carmen last year. But again, COP didn't reward their innovation and supreme quality of dance. If one compares the results of the 2 approaches, clearly the reward is not to push the sport, but to keep the status quo. I'm sure, in this Olympic year, we will see something much more mainstream from V/M because medals matter a little more to them this year, although I'm guessing it will still have their unique twist. Because the judges have been either too lazy or uneducated to really use GOE and especially PCS to distinguish these things, and both teams get pretty much the same PCS, there is no incentive for D/W to take any risks. That doesn't make them lazy. It makes them strategic. They are laser focused on their goals.

I disagree that V&M's Carmen is cutting edge or pushing the envelope. Carmen in black and crotch-grabbing are why people think it's a "modern" interpretation. V&M's 2012 program is one of their weakest and most boring. D&W can skate to classics and people complain, but when V&M do the same, it's art. A bit unfair.
 

KKonas

Medalist
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
From the USOC Media Summit in Park City, Utah

Quote from ESPN article by Bonnie D. Ford
Davis and White say it wouldn't be "healthy" to focus on the Olympic gold medal itself, and manage to be convincing when they talk about refining their already superlative chemistry.
"When we won worlds in 2011, one of the things that helped us [defend] is that we didn't say, 'Let's continue at this level and expect the same results,"' White said. "Our expectations go beyond any given placement ... staying in character from beginning to end, and keeping everyone enthralled."

Quote from The LA Times article by Helene Elliott
They’re pleased with their own progress so far this season and say they’re focusing on getting better, rather than obsessing over the gold medal. That’s part of what makes them entertaining to watch: They’re great technical skaters and terrific performers who have advanced a discipline that had been mocked for its over-the-top costumes and music. And, often, those criticisms were justified.
“I think we just know that allowing ourselves to just linger on the idea of a potential medal, focusing on a gold medal, it’s not healthy for us at this point,” Davis said. “We’re focused on what it is we can do to improve our training, improve what it is we’re putting onto the ice, that I feel we kind of have that comfort zone of focusing on the training without getting too far ahead of ourselves.”
White echoed that.
“When we won the championships in 2011 one of the things that helped us was not saying, ‘Oh, we’re world champions, let’s just continue at this level and expect the same result,’” he said. “Our expectations for ourselves go above our placement in any given competition ….
“From beginning to the end of the program, staying in character and keeping everyone enthralled with not just the elements or the speed or anything in particular but just the overall feel of the program: I think that’s where we’ve really taken off and I think what is going to make this a really special year.’’
 

macy

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
i think this program is stunning. i haven't seen anything from V/M and i already know they're the ones to catch. i can already see they ARE going to peak this season. i remember reading an article on IN a little while back, and one of them said (don't remember if it was meryl or charlie) that they know they have a lot to improve on this program and a lot of work to do. but this is so OGM worthy. i will see them live at skate america and am really looking forward to seeing the improvement live from 09 nationals.
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
You know you are probably the second person I've witnessed saying that D/W are better live than on video, so I'm starting to believe there might be some truth to that. Because to this day the bad leg line of Meryl's drives me nuts especially in the Giselle SD, so they must be better live than on video. Anyone would like to elaborate here?

I don't think there's much Meryl can do that she hasn't already. Their leg lines bother many fans with classical tastes. It used to bother me too. That is how her legs are anatomically and naturally shaped. Not everyone gets to have legs like Domnina.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Evan is a yoga fanatic as well. He does tons of off-ice training. And as mentioned, he is very smart at working not only the skating system, but in life in general. Excluding Yuna and Mao, how many have reached in recent memory his financial success especially with the decline of North American pro skating? But you're talking about Frank who has observed hundreds, possibly thousands, of skaters in his lifetime. If somebody stands out due to some quality to Frank, you can bet it's worth looking at. He is a frank man, true to his name. He isn't prone to exaggeration. He may have opinions which people may not agree with, but he is known to be honest and level-headed in his many assessments. This isn't like Sokolova claiming that her students are going to be OGM. That all said, I'm not an Evan fan.

I don't think anyone here has said that elite skaters are lazy. That is an oxymoron. Elite and lazy don't go together. Just some do stand out more than others and that some people's work ethic have garnered more success than others. If you want to help your favorite skaters do well, then it's worth trying to identify the elements that led to their success. Even skaters known to have skewed work ethic such as Bowman, Bobek, Baiul, etc. still worked much harder than the average person in their peak years. However, their level still wasn't enough to stay at the top. There are competitors who are hungrier and will work harder than hard.

I remember reading Domnina and Shabalin's diary somewhere years ago. Hours on the ice, hours on choreography on the floor, hours on conditioning. But their results? Mixed, 2 Euro Champs, 1 World, Olympic bronze... they had the momentum to win OGM at one point, but Shabs' injury, their inevitable decreased training, and horrid Linichuk programs destroyed their chances. They had the goods but couldn't keep it up. So I don't think they're an example of worker smarter, not harder.

D&W is worker smarter, work harder. And it shows.

Okay it is pretty apparent who some people are cheering for but let's be fair for goodness sake. Domshabs was one of the saddest situation - a team that was doomed due to his knees It had nothing to do with talent or programs it was sadly physical.
 

Eddie Lee

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
You know you are probably the second person I've witnessed saying that D/W are better live than on video, so I'm starting to believe there might be some truth to that. Because to this day the bad leg line of Meryl's drives me nuts especially in the Giselle SD, so they must be better live than on video. Anyone would like to elaborate here?

I'm extremely partial to Davis & White, but I like the skating of Virtue & Moir equally, sometimes more. The latter pair usually has more charisma and artistry ("Carmen" not so), but DW have more speed and athleticism. I agree regarding Meryl's leg line, but I'm beginning to believe it has something to do with their coaching, because I notice the same with Tessa. There were a couple of moves in Carmen when Tessa's leg movements were very ungainly. However, Tessa seems to have the edge on upper body movement and overall expressive moves. And Scott is the most skilled ice dancer in competitive skating, male or female. That being said, the Olympic Virtue/Moir Mahler FD has never been equalled in my opinion. I relish the approaching Grand Prix Series and , hopefully, the GP Final where these two teams meet head-on for the first time this season.
 

Matt K

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 3, 2013
This program is unmusical. And they're not even trying to hide their lack of body awareness and in-between connection it's almost funny.

Ultimately the medal is more about what they are as skaters and dancers than about their programs. Even if they have the best programs in the world -- they don't anyway, W/P already have superior programs as they did last season, does their "Humanity in Motion" performance deserve gold in the free skate at 13 Worlds? Nope. -- they are not the ice dancers in the world regardless of what bucketloads of 10s on components want me to believe.

You're talking about Davis/White right? Okay got it. For a moment i was confused since when W/P got 10s.
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Okay it is pretty apparent who some people are cheering for but let's be fair for goodness sake. Domshabs was one of the saddest situation - a team that was doomed due to his knees It had nothing to do with talent or programs it was sadly physical.

At risk of going off-topic, yes, they were tragic, and Max's knees affected everything severely, but I still think the quality of skating was very high despite weak to average twizzles and spins. Their ice coverage, power, and speed was in a class of their own. Their Tango Romantica is probably the definitive textbook interpretation of that CD. If only their programs did them justice, they would have challenged V&M and D&W in 2010. I don't think you even get what I'm saying at all. DomShabs were my favorite and I was very sad when they couldn't be OGM. DomShabs are probably the last classical Russian ice dancers from the old era, as they also had the bodies for it. B&S and I&K are, like everyone else, throwing fine lines and posture to the wind, since it's no longer rewarded. COP has changed everything, especially the look that older skating fans value. Meryl doesn't have great leg lines due to genetics mostly. Still think she and Charlie can have better matching leg lines at times.
 
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