Is Davis and White's FD gold mdeal worthy? (i.e, Are they getting lazy and unmotivated?) | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Is Davis and White's FD gold mdeal worthy? (i.e, Are they getting lazy and unmotivated?)

Matt K

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 3, 2013
I'd rate V/M higher than D/W in aspects of artistic interpretation and basic skating technique (edging, power, ability to generate speed effortlessly).

D/W seem to have more of a COP style of ice dance that works well with the judges, but for me, they do not a single quality that really puts them above V/M. (I've watched both pairs since even before the last Olympic Games til now so I am familiar with both couples' work).

Just my 2 cents.
 

NorthernDancers

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
I disagree that V&M's Carmen is cutting edge or pushing the envelope. Carmen in black and crotch-grabbing are why people think it's a "modern" interpretation. V&M's 2012 program is one of their weakest and most boring. D&W can skate to classics and people complain, but when V&M do the same, it's art. A bit unfair.

You are entitled to your opinion. It isn't shared by many of the skaters/fellow competitors themselves, past or present, or other coaches, or many fans. Some people did not understand the concept or art of Carmen, or perhaps didn't want to. These are normally the same people who don't watch, understand or appreciate modern dance on the floor. V/M Carmen was groundbreaking because it really worked to take the principles of real dance on the floor and stage and bring it to the ice. It was likely the most difficult program ever done on ice. It was executed with incredible lines, attention to detail, speed, power, emotion, .... It was the closest thing I've ever seen to marrying ice dance into art and sport. It really transcended COP, which is evidenced by how it was and wasn't judged throughout the season. They proved that COP does not need to be formulaic, and only about elements. There is nothing wrong skating to classics. People complain about D/W sometimes because they do re-use many concepts, stylings and yes, elements. I don't blame them. They are staying with what they know, doing it well, and racking up the points. When V/M skate, to me, it really is art, from unique choreography, new elements, and attention to all the details from the top of their heads to the tips of their fingers and toes. Their lines, expressions, everything is so in sync. They are truly once in a generation team. D/W are fantastic skaters and great athletes. I like watching them. They are very nice people. My favourite programs of theirs would have to be Bollywood and Samson. But for me, V/M are the perfect combo of sport and art, real dancers. And for me, this is ice DANCE.
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
You are entitled to your opinion. It isn't shared by many of the skaters/fellow competitors themselves, past or present, or other coaches, or many fans. Some people did not understand the concept or art of Carmen, or perhaps didn't want to. These are normally the same people who don't watch, understand or appreciate modern dance on the floor. V/M Carmen was groundbreaking because it really worked to take the principles of real dance on the floor and stage and bring it to the ice. It was likely the most difficult program ever done on ice. It was executed with incredible lines, attention to detail, speed, power, emotion, .... It was the closest thing I've ever seen to marrying ice dance into art and sport. It really transcended COP, which is evidenced by how it was and wasn't judged throughout the season. They proved that COP does not need to be formulaic, and only about elements. There is nothing wrong skating to classics. People complain about D/W sometimes because they do re-use many concepts, stylings and yes, elements. I don't blame them. They are staying with what they know, doing it well, and racking up the points. When V/M skate, to me, it really is art, from unique choreography, new elements, and attention to all the details from the top of their heads to the tips of their fingers and toes. Their lines, expressions, everything is so in sync. They are truly once in a generation team. D/W are fantastic skaters and great athletes. I like watching them. They are very nice people. My favourite programs of theirs would have to be Bollywood and Samson. But for me, V/M are the perfect combo of sport and art, real dancers. And for me, this is ice DANCE.

I didn't find VM's Carmen to be much more innovative and "modern" than K&O's. I have seen many mixed reactions to VM's Carmen. Some swear by it, others don't. Based on the opinions I've read and heard, it's about 50/50 positive to unsure/negative. The numbers are out there. Your perceived weaknesses of DW are similar to what criticisms against VM are; repeated stylistic choices and themes. What makes a skater's style is also what people usually criticize them for. Again, if you know so much about modern dance - what exactly is so "modern" and cutting edge? What moves that we haven't seen by others in the past? Generalities upon generalities don't convince anyone.
 

colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
NorthernDancers ...That was well said.

What can I say ? D/W's program will be OG worthy if they skate best on the day and if V/M's program is not received any better.. Having said that, this program doesn't thrill me. I suppose I like it better than I feared I would when I first heard about it. My fear was that they'd try to shoehorn Charlie into the Golden Slave role , with all it's attendant lust and seductiveness, and frankly, I worried it might be like the orchestrated "Connection" intro to last year's program, and fall completely flat.

There are, as usual , some very, very nice unique elements in the program . And it's still very early in the season , but so far those elements stand out individually , for me, instead of growing out of the dance..This could change as the season progresses.. However, Charlie doesn't really seem like the Sultan to me either,I feel no air of command.. so I don't know where that's going.. Of course , I expect them to give their all, and skate the program very well.. They can't be faulted in that regard.

I just don't find the program very thrilling right now. I think the program itself is beatable..and I have to echo others in that as far as translating dance onto ice goes V/M really are peerless , today. But we know that isn't always rewarded as much as it could be , and innumerable circumstances on any particular day can make a huge difference.
 

katha

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 7, 2007
I'm a big fan of D/W, so of course my opinion is coloured by that, but yes, I think the programs have potential. The FD in particular is already much better than I expected, I already prefer the concept to last year's program. They bring drama to the music without getting frantic about that, which is something they have learned over the years. I agree with other posters that their tango FD was crucial in that respect, they had to be precise and controlled there and skate "together" throughout the thing, while still displaying their trademark attack and speed. It's perhaps even my favourite program of theirs, I also thought the coldness and aggression they displayed there worked really well, not every tango has to be sultry.

Giving my two cents to the dreaded rivalry discussion: I think what V/M, despite all their brilliant qualities and more natural talent, lack compared to D/W now is sharpness, the way D/W are just on point when presenting their programs. I thought that V/M's Carmen was choreographically superior to D/W's FD, but V/M struggled with it all year and when they finally got it right at Worlds IMO it still wasn't as sharp and forceful as a program with that theme needed to be. And so D/W won on superior performance of a fine, but inferior choreography. They elevated their material in a way V/M couldn't. And of course they had the superior SD, I thought Zueva or whoever makes the choreographic decisions there, really didn't serve V/M well with their SD that totally de-emphasized the polka aspect of, you know, the polka SD.

I'm sure a lot of that has to do with V/M constantly having to manage Tessa's injury, training has to be paced accordingly etc. When you look at their Olympic programs, or how they skated in the FD at Worlds 2008, there's just a snap and a precision there that they don't quite have now IMO. But of course they are still really brilliant and I appreciate that they went away from the "young love" FDs that really dominated their repertoire until 2010. Seeing them branch out and do interesting new concepts has been a treat. :)

Whereas D/W really pushed themselves in other ways. I already said that I think the tango was a milestone for them, a big risk to do an FD that actually accentuates your weaknesses, without sweeping music etc. and they struggled with it all season (Charlie in particular IMO) but at Worlds it was brilliant. Die Fledermaus had them do something light and airy, which was something they hadn't really emphasized in FDs until then. And Notre Dame was basically "new and improved D/W doing their trademark high drama", it wasn't as out of control and wild as the program would have been skated by them in 2009 or 2010 IMO, their take this time around was much more nuanced. IMO the program, despite not being the height of creativity, really highlighted how far they'd come since 2010. The FD this year also doesn't go the obvious, arm-flailing "all action all the time" route, both music cuts and choreography are more subtle and detailed than that.
 

noidont

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 27, 2010
I've loved almost all of V/M's ODs or SDs but never liked a single one of their FD. The famed Mahler program was completely cheesy to me. Their Carmen is as laughable as most of the modern dance performances I see every year. I love modern dance, but the creative apparatus for dance is just getting empty and very pretentious these days, most times with academic buzzword concepts and no sincere emotional attachment to hang on to (like how I felt about V/M's Carmen. I've no idea what they wanted to express, apart from "bringing modern dance to the ice"). D/W's FDs however always interested me. They are better ballet actors and could bring on a good classic act when you could just look at their feet and movement, not their faces or who they are off ice.

But this one not so much. I don't really like either of their program this year, though the elements and complexity are there. I would much rather them do another grand ballet to finish off their career (or not). Last year's Giselle SD was great. I would love V/M to do a tango or something, but I guess they are going for another Mahler. W/P's tango, though I can't imagine being very popular, is quite pure to the art form.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
I've loved almost all of V/M's ODs or SDs but never liked a single one of their FD.

Strange, I feel quite opposite. Their SD in 2010 is the only one I find particularly memorable, whereas I think their Free Dances are usually great (although I agree Mahler is totally overrated).
 

apple123

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 13, 2010
D/W's FDs however always interested me. They are better ballet actors and could bring on a good classic act when you could just look at their feet and movement, not their faces or who they are off ice.

Hahaha, a three-year old kid hops a a few steps, and her parents call her a ballerina. That's what happened here.
 

colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
I ,too, desperately wanted to see V/M do a Tango FD..any year.. but I suppose if they had, people would still be saying it was repetitive, since they're totally suited to it . They're one of the few couples who really connect with that dance..ah, well..

But you know, much as I love Meryl and Charlie ( and I do ) I have to disagree about their use of ballet. Their Giselle SD was a good program and certainly , it was fun and the audience could relate to the music.. But what I'll be going back to watch will be Bollywood, or the Charleston.

I just had to bite my tongue last year when some people were raving about Meryl being just like a ballerina.. If it was up to me , as a former ballet student , performer and teacher, ballet is the last form I would put Meryl into. She's not the right body type and her back and arms are little too stiff to really do the form justice. I think she's terrifically suited to more modern forms , like broadway dance styles,or even modern dance with it's many strong positions . Bollywood was great because the movements were sharp, had a lot of bent elbows and posed hands , and of course the playfulness suited her to a T.
 

WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
I ,too, desperately wanted to see V/M do a Tango FD..any year.. but I suppose if they had, people would still be saying it was repetitive, since they're totally suited to it . They're one of the few couples who really connect with that dance..ah, well..

But you know, much as I love Meryl and Charlie ( and I do ) I have to disagree about their use of ballet. Their Giselle SD was a good program and certainly , it was fun and the audience could relate to the music.. But what I'll be going back to watch will be Bollywood, or the Charleston.

I just had to bite my tongue last year when some people were raving about Meryl being just like a ballerina.. If it was up to me , as a former ballet student , performer and teacher, ballet is the last form I would put Meryl into. She's not the right body type and her back and arms are little too stiff to really do the form justice. I think she's terrifically suited to more modern forms , like broadway dance styles,or even modern dance with it's many strong positions . Bollywood was great because the movements were sharp, had a lot of bent elbows and posed hands , and of course the playfulness suited her to a T.

Actually I tend to think of D/W and V/M as the contemporary equivalents of Gene Kelly and Fred Astaire. Great performers, different styles. But one style is not inherently "better" than the other. I just think we're damn lucky to be living in the era where they are competing.
 

Big Deal

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
Actually I tend to think of D/W and V/M as the contemporary equivalents of Gene Kelly and Fred Astaire. Great performers, different styles. But one style is not inherently "better" than the other. I just think we're damn lucky to be living in the era where they are competing.

I fully agree with your statement. I personally much more prefer V/M, but quite able to understand the D/W die hard fans.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
This FD performance was crisp, sharp and precise, very impressive for such early performance in the season. It showcased their strength, athleticism and speed perfectly. Ice Dance should be a sport first and foremost and what they have done is enforce this notion, which is perfect for an Olympic year. Any athlete, even those who don't skate, can appreciate their work as athletes do, recognizing the enormous effort required to lay that out on the ice.

If anything, this shows they are super hard working and totally motivated.
 

Big Deal

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
Ice Dance should be a sport first and foremost and what they have done is enforce this notion, which is perfect for an Olympic year. Any athlete, even those who don't skate, can appreciate their work as athletes do, recognizing the enormous effort required to lay that out on the ice.

If anything, this shows they are super hard working and totally motivated.

I'm agree, but Charlie White's dying swan action after every single performance makes me tired.
How it happen Mery Davis NEVER theatrecally dying after the same hard work.
I always thinking that is a part of their "performance". Leave it, PLEASE!!
 

apple123

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 13, 2010
This FD performance was crisp, sharp and precise, very impressive for such early performance in the season. It showcased their strength, athleticism and speed perfectly. Ice Dance should be a sport first and foremost and what they have done is enforce this notion, which is perfect for an Olympic year. Any athlete, even those who don't skate, can appreciate their work as athletes do, recognizing the enormous effort required to lay that out on the ice.

If anything, this shows they are super hard working and totally motivated.

Wow, finally someone faces the ugly truth. Even D/W fans don't think they put dancing first and most. Good, let's grab a few hockey players to do figure skating then. They are ultimate athlete, so why not? How absurd?! And just to be clear, V/M is not really slower than anyone else. They move with the music, and emphasize every single note, not just speeding around like a truck driver.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
I'm agree, but Charlie White's dying swan action after every single performance makes me tired.
How it happen Mery Davis NEVER theatrecally dying after the same hard work.
I always thinking that is a part of their "performance". Leave it, PLEASE!!

It could have been his asthma. I think he leaves nothing out, so he's pretty spent by the end.
 

apple123

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 13, 2010
It could have been his asthma. I think he leaves nothing out, so he's pretty spent by the end.

Good. Next time when D/W fans use Tessa's legs as the excuse of unfair judging, Charlie's asthma should be mentioned at the same time. It shows they have physical weakness,too
 

tulosai

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 21, 2011
Good. Next time when D/W fans use Tessa's legs as the excuse of unfair judging, Charlie's asthma should be mentioned at the same time. It shows they have physical weakness,too

Not sure I really understand the tone of your comment, but for what it's worth, Meryl Davis also has virtually NO depth perception. How she made it so far in the sport amazes me given that fact.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Not sure I really understand the tone of your comment, but for what it's worth, Meryl Davis also has virtually NO depth perception. How she made it so far in the sport amazes me given that fact.

Huh, really? That's interesting. Where did read about that? That is pretty amazing.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
But you know, much as I love Meryl and Charlie ( and I do ) I have to disagree about their use of ballet. Their Giselle SD was a good program and certainly , it was fun and the audience could relate to the music.. But what I'll be going back to watch will be Bollywood, or the Charleston.

I just had to bite my tongue last year when some people were raving about Meryl being just like a ballerina.. If it was up to me , as a former ballet student , performer and teacher, ballet is the last form I would put Meryl into. She's not the right body type and her back and arms are little too stiff to really do the form justice. I think she's terrifically suited to more modern forms , like broadway dance styles,or even modern dance with it's many strong positions . Bollywood was great because the movements were sharp, had a lot of bent elbows and posed hands , and of course the playfulness suited her to a T.

I actually do watch Giselle over and over. To me, it's like you're in the middle of your ballet class and suddenly you say, OK, the heck with that, let's break into a Polka. :yes:
 
Top