Is Davis and White's FD gold mdeal worthy? (i.e, Are they getting lazy and unmotivated?) | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Is Davis and White's FD gold mdeal worthy? (i.e, Are they getting lazy and unmotivated?)

bramweld

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
To be honest this D/W and V/M argument is really tiresome old news. Honestly they give me goose bumps in fits and bursts only over the last couple of years. I hope either a rising time or a new team or a greatly improved one, any one can shake things up a bit. For me ice dance is synonymous with fashion, after a while a certain style gets stale. To me they're both sort of recycling "classic" old programs for their Olympic campaign and so I'm a bit bored with both of them. But who knows I'm open to a nice surprise now and then. Have at it I say:biggrin:
 

NorthernDancers

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Really? To each their own then, I guess.

V/M's twizzles have always been the standard for me, and still is. The way their twizzles are aligned so perfectly centered and controlled (without any shifting of the upper body/shoulders), not to mention superior ice coverage they have on this element puts them ahead of any other team currently. For those who want to see V/M do the 2-set twizzles rather than the 3-set, they already have mastered this back in the last quadrennial where they were the first team to achieve the maximum score on this element (Olympic FD). They've now moved on to try newer twizzles, namely the 3-set kind where they, again, create slight variations each year.

Just my 2 cents.


That was kind of my point. I was disputing the idea that V/M have stagnated since Vancouver. I'm not buying it in any way. And you validated my point. Twizzles were a little more "hit or miss" for them in the distant past. They've become much more solid, stable and difficult over the last few years in my opinion. I don't think there is a team in the world who is 100% on twizzles all the time, every time.
 

Eddie Lee

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
.......I also think it is time we gave the "poor injured, fragile Tessa" idea a rest........ When I look back to pictures of Vancouver, she looks really thin (too thin), and they both look really young. They now both look like gorgeous, healthy, vibrant all-grown-up young adults.

I prefer the lithe, 2010 version of Tessa, however she is a beautiful woman, and perhaps the most engaging female ice dancer of the current era. She and Scott will be formidable competition-- and may well "take the season."
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Re twizzles: The 3 set kind are neither harder nor easier than the 2 set kind intrinsically. That's why both varieties are worth level 4, when enough rotations are done cleanly, and when the upper & lower body difficult positions are correctly executed. Skaters will pick one version or the other, depending on what works for them, for whatever reasons.

Skaters that want to highlight their ability to go the whole length of the ice in a twizzle might prefer 3 sets, but also skaters that don't feel comfortable entering a twizzle from a jump might prefer 3 sets, and often skaters with significantly weaker twizzles in one direction or the other choose the 3 set option so that they can look good for 2/3 of the skill, and finish the skill well, rather than finishing in their weak direction. (This would be true for P&B for example)

Skaters who twizzle equally well in both directions might like to highlight that fact by doing only 2 sets, particularly if they can go nearly the whole length of the rink with just 2 sets, but skaters who just want to get the skill over quicker might prefer also 2 sets.

Consequently, judges do not treat the 2 set with difficult entrance as somehow easier than a 3 set option, nor do they overvalue the fact that the 2 set kind requires a difficult entrance where the 3 set kind does not.
 
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apple123

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 13, 2010
I don't think any pretending is necessary. The idea that V/M have not improved or stagnated is simply ludicrous. Let's look at this:

- lifts: V/M have made ever more complicated, innovative lifts every year. They are all new every year. They have the most incredible positions, and paint shape pictures with their bodies. Tessa is stronger now physically (arms, core, etc.), and they are capable of much more now than they were in Vancouver.

- twizzles: Again, V/M create new variations every year. The way they enter, exit and play with the music is DIFFICULT, and they have improved their overall stability, speed and ice coverage over the last 4 years. They used to be much less stable, and prone to more errors.

- spins: V/M have improved the speed of their spins, all the while incorporating them even more into the music.

- step sequences: This has always been a huge strength of V/M. No one matches lines, holds, edges like V/M. Over the last 4 years they have improved the overall speed of these, while demonstrating more complexity and difficulty and even more musicality. They did this so well in their program 2 seasons ago that it looked effortless and the ice dancers who were commentators made a special point of showing exactly how difficult and incredible what they were doing really was. It only looked easy. And last year was a whole new level.

- with regard to PCS, they have demonstrated increasing maturity, more complex choreography, a full range of emotions from the drama of last year to the characters of 2 years ago, to the latin expression before. This is a much more mature and seasoned V/M than the sweet kids who won Vancouver. They have taken excellence and built colour, depth, and just more of quality and speed and difficulty and musicality.

I also think it is time we gave the "poor injured, fragile Tessa" idea a rest. I know it feeds nicely into the narrative that somehow V/M are weaker and struggling, and by extension therefore not as good as their rivals. It's just not true. She had some serious issues. She dealt with them. She changed her whole skating technique in the last 4 years, as well as her off ice and on-ice routine. (That in itself is simply incredible!) She is strong and healthy, and they've never looked so happy and relaxed. When I look back to pictures of Vancouver, she looks really thin (too thin), and they both look really young. They now both look like gorgeous, healthy, vibrant all-grown-up young adults.

Point by point, I can't agree more!
 

apple123

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 13, 2010
Re twizzles: The 3 set kind are neither harder nor easier than the 2 set kind intrinsically. That's why both varieties are worth level 4, when enough rotations are done cleanly, and when the upper & lower body difficult positions are correctly executed. Skaters will pick one version or the other, depending on what works for them, for whatever reasons.

Skaters that want to highlight their ability to go the whole length of the ice in a twizzle might prefer 3 sets, but also skaters that don't feel comfortable entering a twizzle from a jump might prefer 3 sets, and often skaters with significantly weaker twizzles in one direction or the other choose the 3 set option so that they can look good for 2/3 of the skill, and finish the skill well, rather than finishing in their weak direction. (This would be true for P&B for example)

Skaters who twizzle equally well in both directions might like to highlight that fact by doing only 2 sets, particularly if they can go nearly the whole length of the rink with just 2 sets, but skaters who just want to get the skill over quicker might prefer also 2 sets.

Consequently, judges do not treat the 2 set with difficult entrance as somehow easier than a 3 set option, nor do they overvalue the fact that the 2 set kind requires a difficult entrance where the 3 set kind does not.

Well, say what you like, when you are stuck with one move for several years, don't blame people to call you one trick pony. That just shows your lack of ability IMHO.
 

mollymgr

Spectator
Joined
Apr 13, 2010
Re twizzles: The 3 set kind are neither harder nor easier than the 2 set kind intrinsically. That's why both varieties are worth level 4, when enough rotations are done cleanly, and when the upper & lower body difficult positions are correctly executed. Skaters will pick one version or the other, depending on what works for them, for whatever reasons.

Skaters that want to highlight their ability to go the whole length of the ice in a twizzle might prefer 3 sets, but also skaters that don't feel comfortable entering a twizzle from a jump might prefer 3 sets, and often skaters with significantly weaker twizzles in one direction or the other choose the 3 set option so that they can look good for 2/3 of the skill, and finish the skill well, rather than finishing in their weak direction. (This would be true for P&B for example)

Skaters who twizzle equally well in both directions might like to highlight that fact by doing only 2 sets, particularly if they can go nearly the whole length of the rink with just 2 sets, but skaters who just want to get the skill over quicker might prefer also 2 sets.

Consequently, judges do not treat the 2 set with difficult entrance as somehow easier than a 3 set option, nor do they overvalue the fact that the 2 set kind requires a difficult entrance where the 3 set kind does not.

I totally agree with Doris. If you did 4 sets of twizzles, you would definitely cover more ice than 1 set. Distance traveled by 1 set of twizzles x number of sets = ice coverage. The arguments about less ice coverage with two sets of twizzles are quite laughable. Of course, it is going to be less due to the fact it has one less set!! A twizzle is not a spin.
:agree:
 

GF2445

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 7, 2012
There is only one way to find out and answer this question. Book a ticket to Detroit and go to the Arctic Edge Skating Club and watch.

If a skater/couple are a world champion or have been, chances are they are far from lazy. Both teams must have a pretty strong working ethic...but I don't know! I've never seen them train...it would be awesome to see though!
 

rvi5

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 22, 2010
I have not read through the V/T thread so perhaps I missed something, but I don't see where Moment said anyone was lazy. I think what Moment meant was, there is less incentive to improve if you are already receiving perfect marks (whether deserved or not). I recall in a highschool business class (or was it law? - I had the same teacher for both), I had obtained a perfect 10 score on an assignment. However the teacher deducted one point on the grounds that nobody was perfect. At least he publicly announced his reason to the entire class.

In any case, I think the skater's incentive to work harder is not so much the exact scores, but rather their closest rivals. In D/W case, V/M are the incentive to improve more (and vice-versa). Neither wants to lose. Without V/M, would D/W have been pushing themselves as hard (and vice-versa)? The fact that they train at the same rink further encourages more improvement, since they can see what their rivals are doing daily. It likely would have been hit & miss if they had been training at different facilities.


ETA: I suppose receiving perfect scores could deceive skaters into thinking they are now untouchable by their closest rivals. But I don't think either D/W or V/M are egotistical enough to believe that.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
I have not read through the V/T thread so perhaps I missed something, but I don't see where Moment said anyone was lazy. I think what Moment meant was, there is less incentive to improve if you are already receiving perfect marks (whether deserved or not). I recall in a highschool business class (or was it law? - I had the same teacher for both), I had obtained a perfect 10 score on an assignment. However the teacher deducted one point on the grounds that nobody was perfect. At least he publicly announced his reason to the entire class.

In any case, I think the skater's incentive to work harder is not so much the exact scores, but rather their closest rivals. In D/W case, V/M are the incentive to improve more (and vice-versa). Neither wants to lose. Without V/M, would D/W have been pushing themselves as hard (and vice-versa)? The fact that they train at the same rink further encourages more improvement, since they can see what their rivals are doing daily. It likely would have been hit & miss if they had been training at different facilities.

Since I was the one that started the thread, I guess I should take responsibility for the title and provide some clarification.

My main goal was to basically get the D/W comments out of the V/T thread and also I thought it would provide some spirited and lively discussion. And it did! (And tulosai provided that awesome article too).

When I said "lazy" I meant more the way that you're illustrating it rvi5 (and Moment too), not in a "sitting around and eating bonbons" way but more on a "rest on your laurels" way. Like "Hey, I don't have to change/do anything because I already have As." Even high achievers have areas where they are lazy because they perceive they have "arrived" in that area.

Hope that provides some clarity.
 

rvi5

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 22, 2010
Thanks for clarifying. I think from the tone of later posts, some people may have assumed Moment had accused D/W of being lazy somewhere in the V/T thread.
 

KKonas

Medalist
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
(Quote) When I said "lazy" I meant more the way that you're illustrating it rvi5 (and Moment too), not in a "sitting around and eating bonbons" way but more on a "rest on your laurels" way. Like "Hey, I don't have to change/do anything because I already have As." Even high achievers have areas where they are lazy because they perceive they have "arrived" in that area. (Quote)

I believe D/W already answered that question from their remarks quoted in several articles from the recent USOC Media Summit.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
KKonas, you are right.

Also the anecdote from the article tulosai provided makes it clear that D&W don't believe in resting on laurels -In the articlere, there was a story told where Marina told D&W they are already getting perfect scores on twizzles; why are they practicing twizzles? And D&W said that they were practicing them because they were not doing them the best they could do yet, they didn't care what the score was.

BTW, I don't think Tessa & Scott are stagnating either. Their efforts at creating new lifts shows that.
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Country
United-States
I would imagine that sharing the same training ice would prevent either team from getting lazy.

It's not as though they have to guess at how hard their rivals are training... they see it every day.

The constant motivation no doubt contributes to D/W and V/M being almost universally recognized as being head and shoulders above the rest of the field.... scattered critics notwithstanding.
 

GF2445

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 7, 2012
Meryl and Charlie got a grilling from David Lease in this week's edition of 'This and That'

Absolutely disgusting! He was mocking Meryl, her character and her voice in such a rude, scathing and cattish manner. They also implied that since they were so focused on getting the gold next year that they are unrelatable to others because they didnt have an Ashley Wagner response when asked about Russia's propaganda laws- absolute garbage.

We all have an opinion on this serious issue but it's the athletes choice whether or not they want to go public on a political/human rights issue and we as a member of the public have to respect their decision As much as we demand others to respect our opinions and beliefs.

It is rich of TSL as they had a whole segment in a previous video, taking a stance against those who destructively criticise skaters about their weight. It is not acceptable at all to make fat jokes (and i agree that this is a terrible and unfortunate problem which should not be tolerated) but apparently to David Lease attacking one's character, personality, opinions and voice through mocking, invective and poor impersonating is somehow acceptable.

Increasingly, TSL has felt that it is entitled because they do great interviews (which i do enjoy alot and commend them highly for). All the empathy i had for them when they were refused media credentials at Salt Lake City is all out the window. If they want to be taken seriously, TSL needs to grow up, get professional and not feel so entitled to say whatever they want and expect then to be rewarded with credentials.

In response to this question on the thread, meryl and charlie work so hard. Their free damce can very well lead them tio victory but its going to be a close affair.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
I have mixed feelings about the interviewers at the USFS media event who asked all the skaters about Russia's anti-gay law, not just about TSL. I applaud Ashley's strong stance against the law, and felt very uncomfortable listening to the other skaters, including Meryl & Charlie, stumble around trying to answer the question.

But I wonder whether it's a fair question to ask athletes at all, especially those athletes whose federation (not to mention the IOC) told them all to stay out of it and let the federation & IOC handle it (like all US skaters) and also those who have sponsors who might have a corporate policy about staying out of political issues (like D&W and Kellogg's). These kids are not politicians, after all. They're just athletes.

Furthermore, the interviewers put all the athletes at risk of problems in Russia, and not being able to compete at all, if they spoke out too vociferously against the law. Their other choice is to waffle & alienate some of their fans (like Dave Lease, in this case).
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Country
United-States
That's interesting, because he went on and on about their programs in their daily reports from SLC, and opined that they had a significant edge because they didn't do ice shows in the summer... instead working on their programs.

So, one can only conclude that his criticism of their "not being relatable" and their "focus on getting the gold" stem from his personal hurt at their not taking a stance that he agrees with... and not the quality of their skating.

Whoever denied them media credentials apparently made the right choice.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I've always felt it to be unfair to put skaters on the spot about any hot-button issue. For one thing, a lot of people that age don't know how to put words together, and anything could come out. For another, these kids are working so hard that their lives are completely wrapped up in a small, constricted world, and they might not be up on all the aspects of the issue in question. Doris's points about the corporate policy of their sponsors and other skating-related issues also hold true. People should speak up when they're ready to speak up. Then they say something meaningful, as Ashley did. Catching some hapless skater saying something awkward or contrary doesn't make the Putin law any more or less wrong, and it doesn't get the law overturned any faster.

After John Lennon was shot dead, some reporter with a microphone found Paul McCartney and asked him what he thought. After some other phrases, McCartney finished up by saying, "It's a drag." Lennon fans, their feelings already raw with grief, took that as evidence that McCartney didn't care at all that his former bandmate had lost his life. Whatever their differences, the two men had been closer than brothers for most of their youth, and it was not possible that Lennon's death was merely "a drag" to Paul. Maybe he hadn't slept that night. Maybe he was so emotional that he covered up with a flip statement. Who knows why that silly phrase slipped out of his mouth? If a savvy guy like that, with twenty years in the spotlight, could be caught out in an unguarded moment, how can we expect some wet-behind-the-ears kid to sound like Winston Churchill?
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
well after seeing the fiascos of V and M clearly D and W current free dance is gold medal worthy. Imaginative and inspiratinal maybe not but it no contest. The OGM is D and W with a nice big bow on top :)
 
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