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Thread: Ashley's R&J?!

  1. #16
    Custom Title BlackPack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    Why would it be anything like Cohen's R&J? It's completely different music.

    But if you want a comparison, I think the choreography of Wagner's program is a lot more interesting and complex than Cohen's. I think it has a lot of potential. But I still find Ashley's emoting a little fake and not truly convincing.
    Well, Cohen has probably performed the best R&J in ladies IMO. If you don't want comparisons, then don't choose the same themes. In any case, AW has to have more complex choreography as it is far more demanded these days than during Cohen's competitive days. Complexity doesn't always mean better and more effective interpretation.

  2. #17
    Custom Title skateluvr's Avatar
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    It is totally not done or poorly done! This music could only be pulled off by Caro or YuNa. I like the dress, very slimming but wrong color-she did yellow and no one looks good in orangey peach. I think it looks nothing like Juliet would wear-I did not even recog. the music. Oh NO!!!! this is no way an Oly program. Who choreographed this? No Philip Mills for sure.

    I say concentrate on a new SP (or go back to her SP two years ago, and bring back black Swan with 3x3.) Does she do 2a, 3t? New Dresses for those great programs. I do not think she'd get dinged for BS. This is not going to do it. I am happy how she skated it so early but this is not the vehicle. She is fighting the big 3 and another 5 for bronze. Time to bring back the crowd pleasing BS. Wow Mills did not do this one, right? So disappointed and I'm a fan.

  3. #18
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    I thought the music was a little too ponderous. There are some other cuts of Prokofiev's R&J that would have helped tell the story better. What's there would be difficult for anybody to interpret.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oreo View Post
    I thought the music was a little too ponderous. There are some other cuts of Prokofiev's R&J that would have helped tell the story better. What's there would be difficult for anybody to interpret.
    I agree re the music cuts. Very heavy and ponderous too much of the time. There should probably have been a little bit more lyricism/beauty/moving music in here. It was Salome like in mood rather than poignant or tragic. I thought Ashley did the best she could on the interpretation.

    I do not like the bodice of the dress or the color, and I agree that it doesn't look Juliet-like.

    I am not a big fan of this program. :( and I like Ashley a lot.

  5. #20
    Custom Title cinnamon's Avatar
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    I actually liked that dress. (Especially right after seeing Mao's new dress... ) It's a good color and looks good on her. And the program, we could see there is some drama in it, but how many people will make an effort to understand what Ashley tries to convey? (I'm talking about regular people looking at the performance.) I've noticed there are some good choreo moments in it. Looking forward to its development.

  6. #21
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    ... Well, I really liked Ashley's outfit, even if it puts me in the minority?

    As for her program, it started out ok but the middle just made very little sense, choreographically and thematically. And then shoe-horning Juliet's suicide in at the end just didn't work for me. Since there was no clear progression of trying to build Juliet's personality or any plot ideas, all I could think at the end was Sassy Gay Friend's assessment of Juliet: "I think you're fourteen and an idiot".

    It just feels like Wilson couldn't make up his mind as to whether he wanted to do a character or narrative driven program, and so ended up with something that was neither. Ashley deserves better IMO.

  7. #22
    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeCygne View Post
    IMO it would've been much more effective to have the program build up to the Dance of the Knights (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBsKplb2E6Q) and have the steps there. I can't believe she didn't even include that music cut at all. I'm all about being original, especially with something as overdone as R&J, but as it is, her music is almost unrecognizable.
    (I'm happy that I'm not the only one who thinks this, when I heard "Ahley+Prokofiev R&J" I immediatly thought "Dance of the Knights"!!)

  8. #23
    Sometimes bad skating happens to good people... LiamForeman's Avatar
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    Ashley Wagner is my favorite US skater. Let me get that out. I am terribly unimpressed with this program. For one the music edits are all wrong. You are waiting for a crescendo, a climax, or SOMETHING and it never happens. It is not audience friendly. I don't see any potential in this. There is no 'there' there to make it happen. Bedroom Juliet is still a boring virgin imo.

  9. #24
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    The bare bones of the program is something that can build. I love that she brings the drama, as I think it IS something that Ashley can pull off, so I respectfully disagree with skateluvr. If she can pull off Black Swan, she can do Juliet. The music cuts, especially in the middle, are rather... displeasing and it loses me there, but she does pick it up in the end.

    I agree with Orange Cat... it needs refinement and a strong Point of View throughout. I think if she conveyed the turmoil in the circular footwork better, and hit the jarring notes with sharper movement, it would work better. As it is, she's just learning it still, and it is early, so hopefully she will work on that. I still need to review what the intention of the program is... but to me, with Prokofiev's version, which, IMO, is all about the duality in Juliet's life, she needs to portray that better. Going between the jarring times of conflict, and the soft melodious "love" is what this program is about. (I actually think it's A LOT deeper than Cohen's. Whereas Cohen portrayed one strong emotion, love, a romantic love, although it was star-crossed love... AW's is much more conflicted, until the end, and that shows with the music. However, the problem you get into when portraying conflicted emotion is muddling those emotions and this feeling of being pulled in all directions, but nowhere strongly.)

    What this program needs, more than anything, is to be refined and edited.

    Also, those sit spins... god it is one of the thing IJS was suppose to improve and yet, the amount of ugly positions I see, particularly in sit spins, is crazy.

  10. #25
    Custom Title cinnamon's Avatar
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    Somebody was writing about David Wilson on this thread. By reading everybody's post here I just wonder, of course I know he is professional but, how one person can create in the limited time span, so many good, meaningful, well-received, satisfy majority of people programs - it's not an easy task! Then it is not surprise that this Ashley's program looks less than perfect at this stage as many of us thinking. It needs some changes. But we see Ashley is capable - this is a good part. So just wait for some brushing up.

  11. #26
    Custom Title BlackPack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zschultz1986 View Post
    I agree with Orange Cat... it needs refinement and a strong Point of View throughout. I think if she conveyed the turmoil in the circular footwork better, and hit the jarring notes with sharper movement, it would work better. As it is, she's just learning it still, and it is early, so hopefully she will work on that. I still need to review what the intention of the program is... but to me, with Prokofiev's version, which, IMO, is all about the duality in Juliet's life, she needs to portray that better. Going between the jarring times of conflict, and the soft melodious "love" is what this program is about. (I actually think it's A LOT deeper than Cohen's. Whereas Cohen portrayed one strong emotion, love, a romantic love, although it was star-crossed love... AW's is much more conflicted, until the end, and that shows with the music. However, the problem you get into when portraying conflicted emotion is muddling those emotions and this feeling of being pulled in all directions, but nowhere strongly.)
    AW isn't the most artistic skater. A variety of emotions can be conveyed by extremely skilled and artistic skaters, but AW isn't one of them. This is the kind of program that requires the likes Paul Wylie, Matt Savoie, Dai, etc. At least Cohen did one general emotion really well, while AW hasn't mastered even one.

  12. #27
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    ^ Completely disagree about that. AW is a very good performer, but needs guidance and the correct programs. She is great with music that has a continuous, pulsing beat. Ashley is able to display a lot of force in her skating, but she does have the ability to show some vulnerability too (helped by being able to hold good positions with calmness). There is so much potential for masterpiece programs with her. Black Swan showed a lot of what she can do, but that program could have pushed her even more gone deeper with portraying insanity. The Red Violin showed she can be elegant and express nuances, it just needed a better ending.

    I think Prokofiev's R&J is an excellent piece for Ashley. It has that driving, forceful, progressive beat and also has a softer side which matches up directly with her sensibilities. She needs a music cut very similar to this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSxXABXBpJM . That "dun-DUN-dun-DUN-dun-DUN-dun-DAH" section we hear in the Anissina&Peizerat program starting at 1:12 is kind of beat which is perfect for Ashley. And for the love of GOD, she needs to have an extended spiral sequence. I'm not sure why her choreographers are ignoring how well she does it (just look at her 2012 program!) and why that kind of sequence is so necessary for her skating. Her last year's program and her current program have brief, uninspiring spirals.

  13. #28
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    I like Ashley's program.

    - The music cuts are not the typical famous warhorse parts of R&J so it's more refreshing;
    - Good death drop, Split jump/lunge, and rollover camel;
    - Triple/Triple jump and all her jumps seemed easy for her.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    ^ Completely disagree about that. AW is a very good performer, but needs guidance and the correct programs. She is great with music that has a continuous, pulsing beat. Ashley is able to display a lot of force in her skating, but she does have the ability to show some vulnerability too (helped by being able to hold good positions with calmness). There is so much potential for masterpiece programs with her. Black Swan showed a lot of what she can do, but that program could have pushed her even more gone deeper with portraying insanity. The Red Violin showed she can be elegant and express nuances, it just needed a better ending.

    I think Prokofiev's R&J is an excellent piece for Ashley. It has that driving, forceful, progressive beat and also has a softer side which matches up directly with her sensibilities. She needs a music cut very similar to this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSxXABXBpJM . That "dun-DUN-dun-DUN-dun-DUN-dun-DAH" section we hear in the Anissina&Peizerat program starting at 1:12 is kind of beat which is perfect for Ashley. And for the love of GOD, she needs to have an extended spiral sequence. I'm not sure why her choreographers are ignoring how well she does it (just look at her 2012 program!) and why that kind of sequence is so necessary for her skating. Her last year's program and her current program have brief, uninspiring spirals.
    Exactly what me and LeCygne are saying: she needs Dance of the Knights, if she wants to use Prokofiev R&J!!

  15. #30
    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    And for the love of GOD, she needs to have an extended spiral sequence. I'm not sure why her choreographers are ignoring how well she does it (just look at her 2012 program!) and why that kind of sequence is so necessary for her skating. Her last year's program and her current program have brief, uninspiring spirals.
    I am actually totally baffled by why almost all skaters seem either not to want to do or not to realize they can do a more extended spiral sequence. Julia L is the only skater I can think of whose program I've seen this year who is actually taking advantage of the fact that she can do a nice spiral. More people should take a page out of her book.

    Now I might be biased, because I love spirals, but I'm not suggesting that people with uninspiring spirals should prolong their spirals. However, for those who do have good spirals, they should showcase them.

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