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Thread: If a skater does all double jumps....

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    If a skater does all double jumps....

    ...but perfect double jumps.... and does the rest of the program exactly the same as how they would do with triple jumps, should they get comparable PCS seeing as how it would still be considered "a clean skate"? And, if not, to what degree should their PCS be compromised?

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    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    It depends on how the jumps affect the choreography. Triple jumps are necessary exclamation points for a competitive performance. Since competitive programs are not choreographed for double jumps only, this theoretical program in question would almost surely be more lackluster without having any.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    It depends on how the jumps affect the choreography. Triple jumps are necessary exclamation points for a competitive performance. Since competitive programs are not choreographed for double jumps only, this theoretical program in question would almost surely be more lackluster without having any.
    True, so the P/E would likely be affected, but should the transitions/skating skills/interpretation/choreography also be severely penalized? Transitions makes sense in that they are more effective when they lead into or lead out of a successful triple/quad jump. Skating skills, interpretation and choreography (assuming the skater still tries to sell the performance) should still be the same, no?

    e.g., does it make sense to say a skater interpreted the program less because they didn't do any triples?

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    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    ^ I'd say the difference between double jumps and triple jumps is the difference between a small exclamation mark and a large one.

    So yes, all other parts of the performance being the same, I would say that PCS deserves to be less for a program with all double jumps as opposed to one with triple jumps.

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    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    e.g., does it make sense to say a skater interpreted the program less because they didn't do any triples?
    Yes, it does, but again it's totally dependent on the program. Every movement is part of the choreography and interpretation. Double jumps are different than Triple jumps.

    A really good double jump can be better choreographically and interpretively than a Triple jump, though. Jason Brown's sequence of tano 2Flip into 2Axel at 2011 Nationals is wonderful - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G94pHGvq3Fs . A nice, unexpected contrast.

    For an example of a time where a skater doubled a Triple that I don't think hurt the performance, I would cite Carolina Kostner's 2Flip-2Toe at 2012 Worlds. It was big, effortless, and clean. The slower rotation of a double in the air creates a different picture. I wouldn't say it was necessarily better than a Triple in this case, but it worked perfectly well. Since Carolina already nailed 3 Triples in her program at that point, and the music was calm, and the jumps hit the beats of the music, it was a very fine movement.

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    I seem to remember Jason Brown's 2011 LP at Greensboro had a 2/2 combination out of interesting footwork. It was a highlight.

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    Simply the best. l'etoile's Avatar
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    Not sure if it would fit but Chan's LP at last year's COR was sublime with many doubled jumps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    I seem to remember Jason Brown's 2011 LP at Greensboro had a 2/2 combination out of interesting footwork. It was a highlight.
    I think it's safe to say that that entire program was highlights...

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    Quote Originally Posted by l'etoile View Post
    Not sure if it would fit but Chan's LP at last year's COR was sublime with many doubled jumps.
    As was Carolina's LP at Europeans!

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    I got your program components right here. Pepe Nero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    ...but perfect double jumps.... and does the rest of the program exactly the same as how they would do with triple jumps, should they get comparable PCS seeing as how it would still be considered "a clean skate"? And, if not, to what degree should their PCS be compromised?
    My inclination is to say "no." To reduce a skater's PCS for having done jumps with fewer revolutions -- given that this is already heavily penalized in the TES -- is double-counting. (I also oppose reducing PCS for falls themselves, for the same reason. A fall may affect a program in other ways, such as causing a skater to miss choreography and fall behind the music; this is legitimate to penalize in PCS, just not the fall itself.)

    The choreographic effect of the number of revolutions in a jump strikes me as marginal. Doing a double rather than a triple (for example), if it could justify a reduction in PCS at all, ought to result in no more than a .1 reduction in Choreography only (no other categories).

    It would not be appropriate to reduce the Performance/Execution score for doing jumps with fewer revolutions (or for falling), given what Performance/Execution actually refers to, as I understand it. It does not refer to how well the skater performed or executed the technical elements, as, of course, this is already measured in the TES, by GOEs. I find this explanation of P/E illuminating: http://www.usfsa.org/content/JS08A-P...compexplan.pdf (At the same time, however, I have never understood how Performance/Execution is supposed to be measuring something not already measured by Choreography and Interpretation.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by l'etoile View Post
    Not sure if it would fit but Chan's LP at last year's COR was sublime with many doubled jumps.
    The reason that it was sublime was because he has had perfect 4T-3T and 4T. It was not because that he has doubled a few jumps. Of course, he did not fall in that program and also expressed his feeling really well have earned him more PCS. He got BV 70.98, TES 84.21, and PCS 92.70.

    I don't believe that with all double jumps in that program, even if it skated perfectly clean, his PCS would remain the same. I believe all categories in PCS will take a hit.

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    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pepe Nero View Post
    My inclination is to say "no." To reduce a skater's PCS for having done jumps with fewer revolutions -- given that this is already heavily penalized in the TES -- is double-counting. (I also oppose reducing PCS for falls themselves, for the same reason. A fall may affect a program in other ways, such as causing a skater to miss choreography and fall behind the music; this is legitimate to penalize in PCS, just not the fall itself.)

    The choreographic effect of the number of revolutions in a jump strikes me as marginal. Doing a double rather than a triple (for example), if it could justify a reduction in PCS at all, ought to result in no more than a .1 reduction in Choreography only (no other categories).

    It would not be appropriate to reduce the Performance/Execution score for doing jumps with fewer revolutions (or for falling), given what Performance/Execution actually refers to, as I understand it. It does not refer to how well the skater performed or executed the technical elements, as, of course, this is already measured in the TES, by GOEs. I find this explanation of P/E illuminating: http://www.usfsa.org/content/JS08A-P...compexplan.pdf (At the same time, however, I have never understood how Performance/Execution is supposed to be measuring something not already measured by Choreography and Interpretation.)
    Completely agree on everything!

  13. #13
    Tripping on the Podium
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    For the average skater the PC's are tied to jumps even though they should not be. But some skaters don't fall into that category and get higher than deserved no matter what!

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    Rejoicing in the land of Kwan kwanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nam57 View Post
    For the average skater the PC's are tied to jumps even though they should not be. But some skaters don't fall into that category and get higher than deserved no matter what!
    I agree with this. I agree with Pepe in saying that the technical aspect should only marginally affect the PCS b/c those two things are supposed to be independent of each other. Having said that, yes, a triple adds punctuation and some programs feel a little flat without triples. However, in most cases when someone starts doubling jumps it's b/c they lose their timing/get nervous/etc. so the jumps are approached like triples, intended to be triples, but then end up as doubles. I think if a skater intentionally went for double jumps, the overall effect would be much different. A well-choreographed, well-delivered program with nothing but double jumps would still be a well-choreographed and well-delivered program...IMO anyway.

    For certain skaters a strong technical performance will earn higher PCS, even if those PCS are unwarranted. Miki Ando comes to mind, and Gracie Gold as well. Gracie's SS and TR are good and her PE may be decent in a solid skate; but I'm consistently baffled as to how the judges justify the scores she is given in IN and CH, especially when comparing her to a skater who does have good IN and CH and yet is scored beneath her.

    Then there are certain skaters who can get low TES yet still receive the PCS due to them. Skaters like Mao and Carolina can have a subpar technical performance and still earn very good PCS which is how it's supposed to be. Even though Carolina fell in her SP at worlds this year, I thought her PCS were justified b/c (jumps aside) the program was beautiful. That's how it should be but this kind of scoring is not consistent across the board. The top skaters won't drop much in PCS but the middle of the pack to lower level skaters see a very steep drop off if they have jump issues.

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