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Thread: what to do with consistent wrong edged jump?

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  1. #1
    Adiós Melon's Avatar
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    what to do with consistent wrong edged jump?

    After seeing Japan Open 2013 protocol, I came across something that I could not stand anymore.
    I'm going to rant about one thing. Well, particularly one skater, Mao Asada.
    We know from all the protocols that she's been getting wrong edge on her triple lutz. I forget the last time seeing a clean, ratified triple lutz from her.
    It's so ridiculous to the point where I wish they would have that warning(!) sign back, and have a severe punishment for almost-intended wrong edge jumps. This way, skaters who has a slight edge problem wouldn't have to face -2s or -1s on their jump. For example, Yuna's "Apparently" wrong edged triple flip on her sp in 2013 should not have received negative goes IMHO. I honestly couldn't even tell if it deserved a wrong edge. However, pretty sure everybody can tell that Mao has a wrong edge on her lutz because it's so easy to tell even without those slo-mo replays.
    I think Mao Asada is not trying to fix her edge problem. Instead, she treats it like a triple flip. Even more so, since she has 3A(which is great), she's abusing this "wrong-edge" jump, because she knows that she would still have the highest BV even if she gets a wrong edge call. Triple flip IS one of her comfortable jumps, and it's like she's trying to bypass the Zayak rule by saying she's doing a triple lutz on a paper, but actually doing a triple flip.

    What would be the solution to this? Have ! sign back and consider severe wrong edge jumps like Mao's Lutz as an actual jump of a correct edge jump? For example, if Mao lands a wrong edge Lutz, technical judge could consider that as triple flip, thus violating the Zayak rule, resulting in no credit for the jump? Automatic -3s from ALL the judges?

    What else can ISU do to fix this?

  2. #2
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    How many tears will you cry when Mao Asada beats Yu-Na Kim at the Olympics?

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    Custom Title yuki's Avatar
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    This is hilarious. You do realize that the majority of top senior ladies either flutz or lip, right? (You don't have to take my word for it, just check the ladies FS protocol at 2013 worlds.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Melon View Post
    I think Mao Asada is not trying to fix her edge problem. Instead, she treats it like a triple flip. Even more so, since she has 3A(which is great), she's abusing this "wrong-edge" jump, because she knows that she would still have the highest BV even if she gets a wrong edge call. Triple flip IS one of her comfortable jumps, and it's like she's trying to bypass the Zayak rule by saying she's doing a triple lutz on a paper, but actually doing a triple flip.
    Not really, no. It's pretty obvious that she at least tries to take off from an outside edge, but switches to inside at the last moment: link. How exactly is she "abusing" the jump if she only does one lutz across both programs?

    Mao is not the only skater with flip or lutz problems and most of them just do the problem jump anyway, take the built-in deduction and move forward. You singling her out for no reason shows the real purpose of this thread, which most definitely isn't you worrying about the well-being of the sport.

  4. #4
    Adiós Melon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    How many tears will you cry when Mao Asada beats Yu-Na Kim at the Olympics?
    I guess you must have when Yuna beat Mao in 2010 But don't worry, I won't because it's unlikely to happen anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by yuki View Post
    This is hilarious. You do realize that the majority of top senior ladies either flutz or lip, right? (You don't have to take my word for it, just check the ladies FS protocol at 2013 worlds.)
    Glad I made you laugh. I laugh at the judges too how some of them managed to give her 0 GOE instead -1s or -2s on that extremely obvious wrong edged triple lutz.



    Not really, no. It's pretty obvious that she at least tries to take off from an outside edge, but switches to inside at the last moment: link. How exactly is she "abusing" the jump if she only does one lutz across both programs?
    No, you're wrong. Her take off is almost same as her takeoff of triple flip. That obvious inside edge. Take a look at Ashley at 2:51. She DID get an edge call for that, but it's not as severe as Mao Asada's. Her takeoff IS NOT same as Mao's. Stop denying that she's not trying. Mao deserves no credit for that jump since her edge is almost identical to her flip. If we had that old ! sign, I would give Ashley ! because it's not a clear wrong edge. But Mao, definite an edge call. Yeah one lutz, but a lutz that she takes it off like flip, allows her to have 3 triple flips in her program. Don't you know the Zayak rule?

    Mao is not the only skater with flip or lutz problems and most of them just do the problem jump anyway, take the built-in deduction and move forward. You singling her out for no reason shows the real purpose of this thread, which most definitely isn't you worrying about the well-being of the sport.
    I said particularly Mao because right now she has the most advantage when it comes to COP because her BV is very high. However, she IS taking an advantage of it by treating her awfully wrong edged triple lutz like a triple flip. Obviously it's better to have a wrong edge call then falling on a jump, but this only applies to her because she has nothing to lose. Other ladies cannot force themselves to do the same thing as Mao's doing because their jumps are limited thanks to Zayak Rule.

    If her triple lutz has a slight edge problem, I wouldn't mind this much, but her edge on her lutz is almost same as her edge on her flip. That's why I think she's taking an advantage of this. And this is also the reason why I don't see her "trying" to execute a correct triple lutz.

    Enlighten me with a skater that has serious edge problem like Mao. Lutz that look almost identical to the flips. Then talk about me singling Mao out for "no reason"

  5. #5
    Custom Title yuki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melon View Post
    I said particularly Mao because right now she has the most advantage when it comes to COP because her BV is very high. However, she IS taking an advantage of it by treating her awfully wrong edged triple lutz like a triple flip. Obviously it's better to have a wrong edge call then falling on a jump, but this only applies to her because she has nothing to lose. Other ladies cannot force themselves to do the same thing as Mao's doing because their jumps are limited thanks to Zayak Rule.
    You're not even trying to make any sense, are you? So all the other girls who execute 2 correct lutzes/flips and 1 flip/lutz with wrong edge in their LPs are not taking advantage of this rule, but only Mao is? You are clearly not biased about this .

    Quote Originally Posted by Melon View Post
    Enlighten me with a skater that has serious edge problem like Mao. Lutz that look almost identical to the flips. Then talk about me singling Mao out for "no reason"
    Off the top of my head:

    Kanako Murakami: link
    Alena Leonova: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_W4S...tailpage&t=396

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    You're trying to make hay where there is none, honestly, Melon. From the link yuki posted, she does start on a BOE, so it's not like she isn't trying (or at least giving the appearance of trying, or whatever you want to conclude.) I understand where you infer that she's not trying to actually do a lutz, but you can't makes rules based on "the intention of the skater." The technical callers aren't mind readers, and they shouldn't have EVEN MORE power like that. They should only be there to call the jumps, spins, and footwork, ding if the wrong edge is used, or if a jump in underrotated, or if there is a fall, nothing more. The judges are free to give up to -3 GOE based on how badly they think the jump was flutzed or done imporoperly.

    This is, yet again, a sign of judges not judging correctly, IMO.

    As a former athlete, you work with your strengths and try to minimize your weaknesses. Mao is minimizing her by only doing one lutz between both programs. IIRC, she was trying to fix her lutz technique a couple years ago and was STILL getting dinged, so, whats the point. Do the jump content that will maximize your BV and TES. (For Yuna, this means no Loop.)

  7. #7
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    A better solution might be to give a bonus to skaters who complete a jump of axel, toe loop, flip, Lutz, Salchow, and loop, done correctly for positive GOE in the same program. Neither Mao nor Yu Na would get this bonus, and in fact, very few skaters would get it. Maybe +3.0 (half a point for each correctly done class of jump). The jump does not have to be a triple to qualify.

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