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Thread: what to do with consistent wrong edged jump?

  1. #16
    Custom Title Nadia01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    As a Mao fan, I am disappointed in how her lutz looks, because she worked so hard to get it right under Tarasova that she lost a lot of consistency. I'm ok with her doing a flutz, and getting -GOE on it, because she needs a triple with her layout if she tries a 3F3/3R, both of which she repeats in her program.
    The issue isn't just the loss of consistency, but that her edge problem is still evident.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadia01 View Post
    The issue isn't just the loss of consistency, but that her edge problem is still evident.
    I agree, what I meant was after all the work her lutz looks like it did in 2006, but only less consistent.

  3. #18
    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post

    Without singling out any particular skater, I do think that this problem should be looked at by the ISU.
    Seconded. While the OP clearly does have it out for Mao, I don't think we should lose sight of the 'general' question being asked. There are a large number of skaters who do know they can't do a proper lutz or flip, either ever or else so infrequently that if they do manage to do one it is a great surprise (say, fewer than 1 time in 20 is the edge right). I don't think it's right that these people should be able to continue to do these jump with such a minimal penalty when in fact, they can't do the jump and they know they can't do the jump. Mao is one such person. Sotnikova is another. Leonova is another. I would need to look at protocols to be sure about who else this would apply to, but I think that maybe the penalty should, at least, be increased substantially. That might stop people who know they can't do the jump from trying and would enable people who can usually or sometimes do the jump to weigh the risks. As it stands now, there is almost no risk.

  4. #19
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tulosai View Post
    As it stands now, there is almost no risk.
    There is, in fact, 0 risk. A 3Lz e with -1 GOE nets you 5.3 points -- exactly the same as a triple flip and higher than any other jump that you might substitute for it. Under the current scoring system a skater would be foolish to omit the triple flutz just because they can't do a Lutz.

  5. #20
    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    There is, in fact, 0 risk. A 3Lz e with -1 GOE nets you 5.3 points -- exactly the same as a triple flip and higher than any other jump that you might substitute for it. Under the current scoring system a skater would be foolish to omit the triple flutz just because they can't do a Lutz.
    Well, there's a risk of more than -1 GOE, and there is some risk if it is the flip you can't do, not the lutz. I do, of course, agree with your general point though.

  6. #21
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    As Mathman points out, a jump with an incorrect edge call really doesn't hit you that hard in terms of GOE.

    People who are suggesting skaters downgrade their flips or lutzes to 3S or 3T haven't acknowledged that even with a flutz/lip, it's still more points. Also, there is most definitely an inherent contribution to the PCS marks when you attempt higher technical content. Otherwise skaters would all be performing double jumps and getting 9.00's.

  7. #22
    Tripping on the Podium penguin's Avatar
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    I used to think the same thing, when skaters who seemingly never bother to fix their problems then "get away with it" year after year. If you can't do a flip (or lutz), then why get the points anyway with a flutz (or lip)? Shouldn't there be a way to prevent skaters who get consistent wrong edge calls from "gaming" the system to allow three lutzes or three flips by sneaking in that flutz or a lip? I have to say that I think the alternative is worse, though - to essentially tell a skater that they're prohibited from TRYING to fix their problems. How will they fix (or be motivated to fix) their technique if some random judge or fan or federation tells them they can't even be allowed the attempt unless it's perfect?

    I've since changed my mind, and have a greater appreciation for the finer details of the sport since I started skating as an adult a few years ago. I'm currently learning my (single) lutz and half the time I get it on the correct edge, and half the time it flips over to the inside edge. It's hard enough to pull off the jump, wrong edge be damned, but if I were told that I couldn't try it unless it was perfect... well, then how would I get it perfect in the first place?

  8. #23
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    I guess some could argue if you got the wrong edge then it is not a flip or lutz then you should get zero...it's like a sundae if you don't have a topping it is a bowl of icecream and that isn't a sundae at all. lol

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    I guess some could argue if you got the wrong edge then it is not a flip or lutz then you should get zero...it's like a sundae if you don't have a topping it is a bowl of icecream and that isn't a sundae at all. lol
    Those people are silly. Just because you are on the wrong edge to get 0 for executing that triple jump is harsh.

    Frankly I think the system penalizes flutzes/lips adequately. It prevent the jump from getting a good grade of execution and cost them a point or two, but also doesn't completely disregard the skater performing the rest of the jump well.

    I also think people make a big deal about it... like they'll put down skaters because they flutz or lip all the time, and really it's like, who cares? Flutz/lipping has only been really scrutinized in the past few years.

  10. #25
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    My opinion is that skaters like Mao, Kanako, Zijun and Adelina not only have flutzes, but horrible flips as well. The power for a flip jump should come from the mohawk/three-turn. These skaters don't generate power that way, but from switching the edge back and forth before taking off. I don't know why the ISU is pretending these girls can do flips or lutzes, because they cannot and their technique is terrible. I would give them deductions for both jumps.

  11. #26
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    This is why Kim's fans are the worst kind. Why not bar Kim from competition because she cant do 3loop?

  12. #27
    Custom Title Nadia01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by penguin View Post
    I used to think the same thing, when skaters who seemingly never bother to fix their problems then "get away with it" year after year. If you can't do a flip (or lutz), then why get the points anyway with a flutz (or lip)? Shouldn't there be a way to prevent skaters who get consistent wrong edge calls from "gaming" the system to allow three lutzes or three flips by sneaking in that flutz or a lip? I have to say that I think the alternative is worse, though - to essentially tell a skater that they're prohibited from TRYING to fix their problems. How will they fix (or be motivated to fix) their technique if some random judge or fan or federation tells them they can't even be allowed the attempt unless it's perfect?

    I've since changed my mind, and have a greater appreciation for the finer details of the sport since I started skating as an adult a few years ago. I'm currently learning my (single) lutz and half the time I get it on the correct edge, and half the time it flips over to the inside edge. It's hard enough to pull off the jump, wrong edge be damned, but if I were told that I couldn't try it unless it was perfect... well, then how would I get it perfect in the first place?
    Lots of PRACTICE. It's not like skaters can't practice their 3Lz/3F during their training time.

  13. #28
    Custom Title Nadia01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    This is why Kim's fans are the worst kind. Why not bar Kim from competition because she cant do 3loop?
    Hahaha. Very funny. She can do 3Lo, but she doesn't do it b/c it bothers her pelvis/hips. I prefer that she skips this one particular jump and stay healthy.

    BTW -- the point was not that everyone must do all 5 different types of triples or WD. But that penalties for improper flips/lutzs should be more severe to force skaters to learn them right.

    Miki did fix her lipping issue, BTW. So it is doable. But only if you actually care enough about it to do it. If they don't care enough about it to learn / fix, then they can just omit it from their programs, instead of doing it anyway and get as many points as a properly executed 3F like Mathman said.

  14. #29
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    I think the TS just should give credit for jump based on the take off edge instead of the judges giving negative GOE's for a WEED. So for example, if a skater does a lip then give credit for a flip and flutz give credit for a flip. If the skater repeats the same edge more than twice or 2 jumps without the combination, then the TS should give that an invalid jump. This would encourage skaters to either fix their edges, especially on the junior level where the single jump in the SP is designated each year.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadia01 View Post
    Miki did fix her lipping issue, BTW. So it is doable. But only if you actually care enough about it to do it. If they don't care enough about it to learn / fix, then they can just omit it from their programs, instead of doing it anyway and get as many points as a properly executed 3F like Mathman said.
    She fixed the lipping, but in the end her flip became highly inconsistent. She eventually gave up doing it altogether. Just like when Mao tried (the first time) to fix her Flutz. It worked until the end of that year and them went downhill before disappearing from her programs altogether.

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