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Thread: what to do with consistent wrong edged jump?

  1. #31
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by penguin View Post
    I used to think the same thing, when skaters who seemingly never bother to fix their problems then "get away with it" year after year. If you can't do a flip (or lutz), then why get the points anyway with a flutz (or lip)? Shouldn't there be a way to prevent skaters who get consistent wrong edge calls from "gaming" the system to allow three lutzes or three flips by sneaking in that flutz or a lip? I have to say that I think the alternative is worse, though - to essentially tell a skater that they're prohibited from TRYING to fix their problems. How will they fix (or be motivated to fix) their technique if some random judge or fan or federation tells them they can't even be allowed the attempt unless it's perfect?

    I've since changed my mind, and have a greater appreciation for the finer details of the sport since I started skating as an adult a few years ago. I'm currently learning my (single) lutz and half the time I get it on the correct edge, and half the time it flips over to the inside edge. It's hard enough to pull off the jump, wrong edge be damned, but if I were told that I couldn't try it unless it was perfect... well, then how would I get it perfect in the first place?
    penguin, Welcome to Golden Skate! Post long and often!
    Thank you for a thoughtful first post.

  2. #32
    Tripping on the Podium penguin's Avatar
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    Thanks dorispulaski for the nice welcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nadia01 View Post
    Lots of PRACTICE. It's not like skaters can't practice their 3Lz/3F during their training time.
    Well obviously I would practice, and so would the elites with flutz/lip issues. But my point was that this all or nothing approach in competitive scoring is not going to help or advance the sport. It might do more to hold it back.

  3. #33
    🌸🐱❄🐱❄🐱🌸 jennyanydots's Avatar
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    I've heard top coaches say that fixing flutzes at the triple level isn't possible in all cases, if not the majority. The technique gets so ingrained that a lot of times the skaters can't even do a proper half lutz. So just because a skater continues to flutz hardly means that they've made no attempt to fix it. Fixing a lip would seem to be more doable than a flutz. In either case, I would much rather have the jump attempted than omitted just as long as they call it correctly. I definitely don't want to see technical content going back to the 1980's. I've also heard it suggested that the lutz and flip be considered the same jump like the toe loop and toe walley. I don't agree with that though because they are distinctly different jumps unlike the latter where it's debatable whether a true toe walley is ever really done or not.

  4. #34
    Rinkside
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    Quote Originally Posted by jennyanydots View Post
    I've heard top coaches say that fixing flutzes at the triple level isn't possible in all cases, if not the majority.
    Half-true, I would say. Reteaching technique at later stages is tough in any sport (ex. tennis player Elena Dementieva and her serve...).
    BUT. Reteaching the kid, while technique is not fully settled yet is pretty much possible. Lots of examples here: Rachael Flatt, Julia Lipnitskaya, Yuki Nishino etc. All had flutzes, but than corrected it to a proper edge take off. But you need a coach who knows a real thing about teaching jumping technique. Not so many coaches do((
    Personally I believe these edge problems come from elimination of compulsory figures.

  5. #35
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshan View Post
    Half-true, I would say. Reteaching technique at later stages is tough in any sport (ex. tennis player Elena Dementieva and her serve...).
    BUT. Reteaching the kid, while technique is not fully settled yet is pretty much possible. Lots of examples here: Rachael Flatt, Julia Lipnitskaya, Yuki Nishino etc. All had flutzes, but than corrected it to a proper edge take off. But you need a coach who knows a real thing about teaching jumping technique. Not so many coaches do((
    Personally I believe these edge problems come from elimination of compulsory figures.
    Genuine question. Don't Rachael Flatt and Julia Lipnitskaya still flutz??

  6. #36
    Custom Title EricRohmer's Avatar
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    Current rule is much more profitable to skaters whose weak/not-mastered jumps are 3Lz or 3F than to skaters whose weak/not-mastered jumps are 3Lo or 3S.
    Consistent flutzers/lippers can do 7-triple program without breaking the Zayak rule doing actually three 3Lz(3F)s in LP or repeating three kinds of triples, while latters have to choose between to fail/fall frequently at weak jump(ex. Yamaguchi) and to be restricted to 6-triple program by omitting 3S or 3Lo(ex. Kim).

    And, IMO, the more skaters (who have a wrong edge problem) care about jumping at the correct edge, the more the jumps get inconsistent(ex. Ando).

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshan View Post
    Half-true, I would say. Reteaching technique at later stages is tough in any sport (ex. tennis player Elena Dementieva and her serve...).
    BUT. Reteaching the kid, while technique is not fully settled yet is pretty much possible. Lots of examples here: Rachael Flatt, Julia Lipnitskaya, Yuki Nishino etc. All had flutzes, but than corrected it to a proper edge take off. But you need a coach who knows a real thing about teaching jumping technique. Not so many coaches do((
    Personally I believe these edge problems come from elimination of compulsory figures.
    It certainly seems as if school figures imparted an edge control that many skaters of today lack. When the world's top skaters have such flaws in their jumps, something seems to be institutionally wrong. I suspect it isn't just skaters who lost out when school figures disappeared. Coaches also lost some command of technique. Presumably all these kids with flutzes and lips had coaches. Did those people not notice, through years of 6 A.M. skating lessons, that their students had such a fundamental error? Or did they just not know how to teach a pure, correct jump?

  8. #38
    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    Genuine question. Don't Rachael Flatt and Julia Lipnitskaya still flutz??
    Julia does, but she is better than she used to be (i.e. can do a proper lutz sometimes) (or at least could last season). That said, she got edge calls on all her lutzes this past weekend.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by koheikun90 View Post
    I think the TS just should give credit for jump based on the take off edge instead of the judges giving negative GOE's for a WEED. So for example, if a skater does a lip then give credit for a flip and flutz give credit for a flip. If the skater repeats the same edge more than twice or 2 jumps without the combination, then the TS should give that an invalid jump. This would encourage skaters to either fix their edges, especially on the junior level where the single jump in the SP is designated each year.
    Then they have to watch the number of that jump because they can't or shouldn't get credit for ie. 3 or 4 flips because their lutz was not off the right edge.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    Then they have to watch the number of that jump because they can't or shouldn't get credit for ie. 3 or 4 flips because their lutz was not off the right edge.
    I think it's about crediting the skater with what they intended. The same with when a skater falls on the second jump that the skater repeats and gets SEQ on it, instead of the jump not counted at all because it wasn't done in combination. The benefit of the doubt should go to the skater.

    In most cases, you can tell that the skater intends a certain jump.

  11. #41
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    I am not opposed to counting lips/flutzs as lutzs/flips, but in fact, this would make very little difference to the total score of a skater like Mao who can now do all other jumps including 3-axel well. In her case, she would replace the one lutz she does in the long program with a double-axel. Her flutz if she got -2 GOE would be 6.0 (base point) -1.4 which is 4.6. Her double-axel with +2 GOE would be 3.3 + 1.0 which is 4.3. The double-axel would additionally probably go into the second-half which would make it 4.73.

    Counting lips/flutzs as flips/lutzs would therefore only affect skaters with a lesser jump repertoire.

  12. #42
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    I've seen coaches who say "good enough" at the single/double flip/Lutz point and don't enforce jumping off a correct edge. Some of these coaches will tell their students that they "have" a given jump and move on to the next because that helps the perception that the student is "improving" - ie, working on harder elements rather than beating on the easier one to make it right. This makes me very sad for those skaters because they COULD be good, but haven't been taught rigorously enough to be that good. It's the same as teaching the skater to rotate and allow things to go to any old method to get it done (wrapped jumps, spinny, icky jumps that are barely/under rotated, etc)

    I've also seen technique issues become magnified when the skater starts seriously working on the triple version of their jump nemesis.

    It goes both ways

  13. #43
    Mashimaro on Ice
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    Considering the sheer amount of skaters at the top level who have edge issues, singling out certain skaters to take the blame is :roll eye: I feel the real problem is that edge issues were virtually ignored for years. It's very hard to correct something that had been ingrained in your muscle memory for years. And just because a skater hasn't corrected the problem does not mean they have not tried/ or do not care to. Elite skaters are competitive enough to to not want any deductions if they could help it. Skaters who don't have edge deductions will have the advantage over those who do if other elements are equal.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    Considering the sheer amount of skaters at the top level who have edge issues, singling out certain skaters to take the blame is :roll eye: I feel the real problem is that edge issues were virtually ignored for years. It's very hard to correct something that had been ingrained in your muscle memory for years. And just because a skater hasn't corrected the problem does not mean they have not tried/ or do not care to. Elite skaters are competitive enough to to not want any deductions if they could help it. Skaters who don't have edge deductions will have the advantage over those who do if other elements are equal.
    There have always been skaters at the elite level who have had edge issues, and only the next generation of skaters will be taught to jump off the correct edge. Before a coach would always be like "Oh, that's a typical lutz entry, that's a typical flip entry, so it will be regarded as such." But now that edge calls are actually being called skaters legitimately have to adapt. It's kind of like how skaters got away with 5-rotation spins... but now that the system has changed, they are forced to focus on making their spins better and more difficult. The difference is, it's easy to add more rotations to a spin and learn new positions... but getting a revised jump technique is particularly hard.

  15. #45
    Custom Title Nadia01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    It certainly seems as if school figures imparted an edge control that many skaters of today lack. When the world's top skaters have such flaws in their jumps, something seems to be institutionally wrong. I suspect it isn't just skaters who lost out when school figures disappeared. Coaches also lost some command of technique. Presumably all these kids with flutzes and lips had coaches. Did those people not notice, through years of 6 A.M. skating lessons, that their students had such a fundamental error? Or did they just not know how to teach a pure, correct jump?
    My guess is that since learning correct jumps can be very difficult, they decided that the effort required to master them was too great compared to penalty.

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