Orser and Wilson - just go back to Hanyu's 2012 LP and Fernandez's 2013 LP

Jaana said:

Javier´s new freeskate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdRF04KZKZg

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I just watched this program but don’t like it at all. Quite boring and I can see it wants to copy Chaplin program but not as good. I think Javier should skate to something more interesting than this.

About Hanyu, I think the new program is better than I thought, with more intricate transitions than the old Romeo and Juliet. I really like it. Also the old R&J was choreographed by the Russian couple. I don’t know if Orser and Wilson can use a program choreographed by others. Do they need the Russians’ permissian? This Olympic season Russian Federation doesn’t allow most Russian coaches to help foreign skaters. So even if Orser and Wilson want to reuse the old program, I don’t know if the Russian Federation would allow that.

Actually, I think this Nino Rota version of R&J is good enough to win Olympics and attract new audience if Hanyu skates it well. Many people on the forum including myself like it, and I see the Finnish audience like it too. Unlike last year when Hanyu was also almost clean, but the audience didn’t really like the Notre Dame de Paris program.

In fact, I think the skater who needs to change program most urgently is Patrick Chan. Both his SP and LP are three seasons old, and they’re both uninspiring. If he’s looking to beat Hanyu and Javier, then he needs better programs than those two. Right now his programs are worse than both his competitiors.

No matter how he delivers it, or puts in the couple extra transitions he left out, the program simply isn't as good. The footwork sequences don't create inspired images and feelings like in the old program. The jumps aren't utilized to emphasize the whole program, but rather are slotted in as required elements...just look at how the Triple Axels are thrown in back-to-back right after the halfway mark. The buildup and purpose is gone. Also look at how they try to throw in his ina bauer as a huge "WOW" move at the end of the program in this new version, as compared to it being a soft and introspective transitional move in the previous program. It works far better as a stand-alone, unpretentious movement.

This new program as a whole lacks the dramatic contrasts of the former program; Hanyu used to be explosive at the start and then have time to settle down with slower movements and genuine vulnerability. Now he is just kind of at the same level the whole time...it's too much of "that was nice, that was nice, that was nice". Nice isn't good enough and it becomes boring when done over and over and over.

Blades of Passion said:

Hanyu used to be explosive at the start and then have time to settle down with slower movements and genuine vulnerability. Now he is just kind of at the same level the whole time...it's too much of "that was nice, that was nice, that was nice". Nice isn't good enough and it becomes boring when done over and over and over.

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You’re only looking at it from an artistic point, but nowadays COP demands busy transitions and a lot of "that was nice, that was nice, that was nice" elements throughout the whole program, which is what Hanyu is doing in the new R&J program. You look at most of Chan’s programs, there are little artistic values, but he’s busy throughout the programs with transitions. That’s how you get high PCS. Hanyu is doing the same level of transitions and more difficult jumps than Chan this season. That’s the only way for him to beat Chan under COP. I think his Nino Rota R&J program is more artistic than Chan’s Four Seasons. But COP doesn’t allow him to settle down with slower movements like you preferred in the old R&J program. The only way Hanyu can get PCS closer to Chan is doing "that was nice, that was nice, that was nice" throughout the program.

Also, don’t forget the Russian Federation. Maybe they’re unwilling to allow Orser and Wilson to reuse the old R&J program. So your question should not be directed to Orser and Wilson only, but should be directed to the Russion Fedreration also.

Aesthetics said:

Also, don’t forget the Russian Federation. Maybe they’re unwilling to allow Orser and Wilson to reuse the old R&J program. So your question should not be directed to Orser and Wilson only, but should be directed to the Russion Fedreration also.

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I'm almost positive his old R&J was choreographed by his old coach Nanami Abe. What does this have to do with the Russian Fed?

starryxskies said:

I'm almost positive his old R&J was choreographed by his old coach Nanami Abe. What does this have to do with the Russian Fed?

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No, the old R&J was mainly choreographed by Natalia Bestemianova and Igor Bobrin. They also taught Hanyu how to present the program, so Hanyu’s artistry increased a lot that year under their guidance. Abe didn’t do much in the choreography and presentation of R&J. You can check Abe’s other works, including the works she did for Daisuke and Mura. All Abe’s works are pretty generic. She is incapable of choreographing such beautiful program like R&J.

Hanyu asked to go to Russia to study with Bestemianova and Bobrin before he went to Orser, but was refused because the Russian Fed considered Hanyu a main rival and did not let B&B take him. So he had to go to Orser. I also think it’s impossible for him to work with B&B at least this season due to Russian Fed. It’s a pity, but that’s just how things work. I do hope he will have chance to work with B&B sometime in the future though.

Well, for this season I can only hope Hanyu succeeds with his new R&J program. It’s also a nice program. I think most of the audience don’t know Hanyu has skated to the old R&J program and they will like the new R&J program. So for the sport’s popularity, the new R&J won’t hurt.

doctor2014 said:

No, the old R&J was mainly choreographed by Natalia Bestemianova and Igor Bobrin. They also taught Hanyu how to present the program, so Hanyu’s artistry increased a lot that year under their guidance. Abe didn’t do much in the choreography and presentation of R&J. You can check Abe’s other works, including the works she did for Daisuke and Mura. All Abe’s works are pretty generic. She is incapable of choreographing such beautiful program like R&J.

Hanyu asked to go to Russia to study with Bestemianova and Bobrin before he went to Orser, but was refused because the Russian Fed considered Hanyu a main rival and did not let B&B take him. So he had to go to Orser. I also think it’s impossible for him to work with B&B at least this season due to Russian Fed. It’s a pity, but that’s just how things work. I do hope he will have chance to work with B&B sometime in the future though.

Well, for this season I can only hope Hanyu succeeds with his new R&J program. It’s also a nice program. I think most of the audience don’t know Hanyu has skated to the old R&J program and they will like the new R&J program. So for the sport’s popularity, the new R&J won’t hurt.

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They could have done good things, but I'm glad he stuck with Orser. With Hanyu's artistry, he could have very easily been pushed into "Russianizing" his skating (kinda like Mao in 2010) instead of maintaining his own identity.

doctor2014 said:

No, the old R&J was mainly choreographed by Natalia Bestemianova and Igor Bobrin. They also taught Hanyu how to present the program, so Hanyu’s artistry increased a lot that year under their guidance. Abe didn’t do much in the choreography and presentation of R&J. You can check Abe’s other works, including the works she did for Daisuke and Mura. All Abe’s works are pretty generic. She is incapable of choreographing such beautiful program like R&J.

Hanyu asked to go to Russia to study with Bestemianova and Bobrin before he went to Orser, but was refused because the Russian Fed considered Hanyu a main rival and did not let B&B take him. So he had to go to Orser. I also think it’s impossible for him to work with B&B at least this season due to Russian Fed. It’s a pity, but that’s just how things work. I do hope he will have chance to work with B&B sometime in the future though.

Well, for this season I can only hope Hanyu succeeds with his new R&J program. It’s also a nice program. I think most of the audience don’t know Hanyu has skated to the old R&J program and they will like the new R&J program. So for the sport’s popularity, the new R&J won’t hurt.

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Oh thanks for the info. Wikipedia states that it was done by Abe and I took it for face value since I wasn't much of a follower back then. I do understand the Russian politics. Not that it would make a difference in the men's field considering their situation anyway.... Funny how things work out

Aesthetics said:

Also, don’t forget the Russian Federation. Maybe they’re unwilling to allow Orser and Wilson to reuse the old R&J program.

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They can't do such a thing. It's not theirs to own.

Aesthetics said:

You’re only looking at it from an artistic point, but nowadays COP demands busy transitions and a lot of "that was nice, that was nice, that was nice" elements throughout the whole program, which is what Hanyu is doing in the new R&J program.

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His old R&J program already had quite a bit of transitions. That's something they could simply add more of with a return to the program. For example, the movements he does before the 3Lutz-half loop-3Sal in the current program...no reason that couldn't just be slotted into the old program as well. It would actually fit the music in that section of his old program better than it does in his current program, LOL!

Yuzu's old R&J is a perfect program for him in a perfect age, perfect stage... It is really hard for such a excitement as 12worlds to happen again because it's already been done to perfection.
I personally wish him to try some new. agree with sequinsgalore "new Romeo & Juliet. It fits his skating style and though it's in the same style of his Romeo+Juliet from 2011-12, I see more refinement and elegance on this one. I feel like this program has OG potential if he delivers at Sochi."
If the old R&J is passion, abandon etc. the new R&j is indeed refinement/nuance and elegance, which really showed Yuzu's improvement during this couple of years.
like Paola D said "Hanyu admitted after FP he put too much focus on jumps...."
I will wait to see how this program progressed as this season goes on and be prepared to be amazed by Yuzu time and time again. If Yuzu can perform this program perfectly to its full potential in Sochi, I believe he will definitely attract tons of new skating fans just like he did in 2012 worlds.

giulia95 said:

If Yuzuru was really free to decide about his Olys programs, as you claim, he wouldn’t have skated to PW SP two days ago for sure. The whole world knows about that issue because the kid screamed it out loud in Japan some months ago unfortunately in vain.

No doubt Orser himself decided to apply the recycling policy to Yuzuru, differently from what he offered to Yuna Kim and Javi now for Olys. But,
like it happened last season , it’s quite curious to realize how quickly some fans address all the responsabilities to Yuzu immediately.


Finally I totally appreciate Mr.Orser amazing sense of humor when he suggested Yuzu not to read the forum , and expecially GS I would say , or he could discover the very shocking news his coach doesnt’t actually believe in him as an OGM contender.

And it’s even funnier because of this:
www.isuresults.com/ws/ws/wsmen.htm :yay:


this anusual and odd situation doesn’t suggest an idyllic scenario at the CC , it suggests something like a comedy going on. Yesterday the last act happened beetwen Yuzu and Wilson, when Wilson was watching the other skaters at the boards instead of being with Yuzu waiting for his FS...:scratch:.

hopefully Yuzu was not alone.. there was Pooh to cheer for him!

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OMG here we go again...are you really a Yuzu fan or is it more a hatred of Brian Orser that fuels your wrath? Come on, Orser is doing a great job with BOTH Yuzu and Javi as these guys certainly have a shot at a medal in Sochi. Yuzuru has recently said he is happy with keeping his SP as it gives him more time to focus on his LP.

I happen to prefer the older R&J program, but reusing that from two years ago would never happen. I think this new version will get better and better and I look forward to watching it progress as the season goes on.

Let your vendetta against Orser go and put your energy into cheering on Yuzu. Please!

msteach3 said:

OMG here we go again...are you really a Yuzu fan or is it more a hatred of Brian Orser that fuels your wrath? Come on, Orser is doing a great job with BOTH Yuzu and Javi as these guys certainly have a shot at a medal in Sochi. Yuzuru has recently said he is happy with keeping his SP as it gives him more time to focus on his LP.

I happen to prefer the older R&J program, but reusing that from two years ago would never happen. I think this new version will get better and better and I look forward to watching it progress as the season goes on.

Let your vendetta against Orser go and put your energy into cheering on Yuzu. Please!

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giulia95 might be Nanami Abe.
Big love for Hanyu, small uncomfortableness for team Orser.

JK

Please don’t say such a thing about Nanami Abe. I feel so sad….
She had been Yuzu’s coach since 2005-2006 at least. I think she discovered and developed his faculties.
His success is of course due to his natural talent but depend on her way of the instruction.

Not widely known even in Japanese fan, Abe is instructor of miyagi FigureSkatingClub(Yuzuru belonged once).
She isn’t only his coach and his choreographer , furthermore she is a mother of two little children.
A smaller one is maybe about four or five year’s old(Sorry this is not accurate information!!!).
And the rink environment is VERY poor in Japan. His excessively short training time is not the only his physical examination and school.
He became very famous especially after the 2012 World Championship, he won’t practice at all I suspected.(Before 2012 World , you see he responded many fans at rink). didn’t have a private rink like Mao or Takahashi(They have both university’s rink.)

Therefore, it was limit of training Sendai for him. If he leave Sendai, she must leave,too, But she has family including children in Japan….
She must send away Yuzuru with tears….

Sorry, kriwyr1009.
I realize my post was not advertent regarding Abe.
I know she is a respectable coach!

kriwyr1009 said:

Please don’t say such a thing about Nanami Abe. I feel so sad….
She had been Yuzu’s coach since 2005-2006 at least. I think she discovered and developed his faculties.
His success is of course due to his natural talent but depend on her way of the instruction.

Not widely known even in Japanese fan, Abe is instructor of miyagi FigureSkatingClub(Yuzuru belonged once).
She isn’t only his coach and his choreographer , furthermore she is a mother of two little children.
A smaller one is maybe about four or five year’s old(Sorry this is not accurate information!!!).
And the rink environment is VERY poor in Japan. His excessively short training time is not the only his physical examination and school.
He became very famous especially after the 2012 World Championship, he won’t practice at all I suspected.(Before 2012 World , you see he responded many fans at rink). didn’t have a private rink like Mao or Takahashi(They have both university’s rink.)

Therefore, it was limit of training Sendai for him. If he leave Sendai, she must leave,too, But she has family including children in Japan….
She must send away Yuzuru with tears….

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Sweet Nanami is a pure genius like Yuzu. The fact that Romeo is back is an immense tribute to her finally and definitely.

doctor2014 said:

No, the old R&J was mainly choreographed by Natalia Bestemianova and Igor Bobrin. They also taught Hanyu how to present the program, so Hanyu’s artistry increased a lot that year under their guidance. Abe didn’t do much in the choreography and presentation of R&J. You can check Abe’s other works, including the works she did for Daisuke and Mura. All Abe’s works are pretty generic. She is incapable of choreographing such beautiful program like R&J.

Hanyu asked to go to Russia to study with Bestemianova and Bobrin before he went to Orser, but was refused because the Russian Fed considered Hanyu a main rival and did not let B&B take him. So he had to go to Orser. I also think it’s impossible for him to work with B&B at least this season due to Russian Fed. It’s a pity, but that’s just how things work. I do hope he will have chance to work with B&B sometime in the future though.

Well, for this season I can only hope Hanyu succeeds with his new R&J program. It’s also a nice program. I think most of the audience don’t know Hanyu has skated to the old R&J program and they will like the new R&J program. So for the sport’s popularity, the new R&J won’t hurt.

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What!? Do you have a source that Russian couple mainly choreographed those programs and that he wanted to go to B&B to coach him?
I’ve read a lot of Japanese articles but as far as I read them, I haven’t seen any articles which say the Russian couple mainly choreographed those programs. (They say Abe mainly choreographed those programs and he went to Russia to brush up the choreography after that. And you see some changes in choreography if you compare his performance in the shows before the competition began to those in competitions.) And I’ve read there were several choices in his mind when he decided to leave Sendai, but I haven’t read that he asked B&B but he was declined. I’m not distrusting you but perhaps there are some misunderstandings or misinterpretations between Russia and Japan

Paola D said:

Hanyu admitted after FP he put too much focus on jumps because they were not good or consistent in practice and he was so nervous about them. I couldn't hear what he and Wilson were talking about in K&C, but some people online said Wilson pointed out to Hanyu he had taken away much of choreography of the FP while skating this time. Some Japanese media reported there were a lot of passion in the program in practice , but Hanyu looked tentative in FP, particularly in the beginning, and the passion was gone.
It seems the problem was not choreography, but that he couldn't deliver the good of FP sufficiently this time. The program looked fantastic in practice videos.

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Yes, in the practice video, the choreo looked much more impressive:yes:

Well, we should consider that things are always changing. Skaters are always changing physically, technically and mentally, as time goes on. And their circumstance changes too.
Talking about Hanyu, 2011-2012season was a really special season for him (as he himself remarks) because it was the season when the earthquake hit Tohoku. He had a hard time and it seems to have mentally affected him a lot. I suppose many fans thinks Yuzuru is a really passionate skater because of his LP in 2011-2012, but watching his performance before 2011, he had not skated that passionately. And 16 -17 years old man and 18-19 years old man are different in every way.
What I found amazing about his old R&J program is that Abe sublimed his unfocused sorrow and resentment against the earthquake into the passionat expression of Romeo. I think it was a perfect way to package him and really great choice of music for him at that time. But in my humble opinion, the choreography itself (I mean each movement in the program) was not so much impressive.
I think “artistic” is one thing and “emotional” is another. His LP in 2012 Worlds was really heart-touching to me, but I think he can’t do the same thing now because he must have calmer feelings now as time pasts. I think now he needs more maturity and refinement to be more artistic. He had real passion and wildness but he needs to present them to the audience in more refined way.
Well, maybe I wrote in a too dramatic way especially about the earthquake, but I don’t think he can do 2012World’s performance every year if he had trained with Abe for another year.

I think this year’s R&J program is impressive and more refined than the old one. But it seemed to require huge stamina to skate that program perfectly. 2 quads 8 triples (including two 3lutzs and two 3axel-combinations in the second half) and lot of transition…
And what I felt frustrating is his costume!! I really hope him to change it. I guess maybe his team and Johnny didn’t want the program regarded as a copy of his previous R&J program and wanted to make a different impression, but I think it doesn’t fit that choreography. The choreo is rather tangible including some kinda pantomime-like movements (looking upon the balcony for Juliet, for example), so I think the costume which is the same type to the one 2years ago would make that program look much better.

As for Fernandez, I think it’s possible to change his LP to the last year’s one if his new LP doesn’t work well with him. (I’m talking just about possibility. I hope his LP will be great) It earned large score and it’s not a big damage for him if he wouldn’t get good scores in GPS or Nationals. He will surely be selected as a representative to OG.

I think Chan's and Plushenko's "best of" are enough. I want to see new programs at the Olympics.

airin said:

What!? Do you have a source that Russian couple mainly choreographed those programs and that he wanted to go to B&B to coach him?
I’ve read a lot of Japanese articles but as far as I read them, I haven’t seen any articles which say the Russian couple mainly choreographed those programs. (They say Abe mainly choreographed those programs and he went to Russia to brush up the choreography after that. And you see some changes in choreography if you compare his performance in the shows before the competition began to those in competitions.) And I’ve read there were several choices in his mind when he decided to leave Sendai, but I haven’t read that he asked B&B but he was declined. I’m not distrusting you but perhaps there are some misunderstandings or misinterpretations between Russia and Japan

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Thank you very much for clarification, airin :thumbsup:

I really really love his Romeo&Juliet 2011-2012 version and the most favorite program of mine even now. I will never forget the performance in the Worlds 2012. However, I don't particularly wish him to repeat that program in the competition. (But to see it in the gala or show is another story) Because it won't be the same as it was in that special season imo.

EricRohmer said:

giulia95 might be Nanami Abe.
Big love for Hanyu, small uncomfortableness for team Orser.

JK

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It can’t be Nanami let him go to Canada with understanding and respect for Yuzuru
So I think she is the last person who wants his fans to say “How miserable you are to have such a horrible coach now!”
(I know you are just joking and making an irony to some fans who don't have sense to refrain from making a hateful posts about his coaches with consideration for other members' feelings, though )

yude said:

Thank you very much for clarification, airin :thumbsup:

I really really love his Romeo&Juliet 2011-2012 version and the most favorite program of mine even now. I will never forget the performance in the Worlds 2012. However, I don't particularly wish him to repeat that program in the competition. (But to see it in the gala or show is another story) Because it won't be the same as it was in that special season imo.

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Airin and Yude, we have almost the same thought on this. His old R&j is a great program but it not just the program that make old r&j so emotional. It is his journey that season - earth quake, no place to train , knee injuries, mistake in sp and the fall before 3a that why the performance at world is so memorable - it like he send message that don't worry about him anymore no matter what happen he will rise up. The magic like that will not likely to be replace again.

I think it great that he doesn't return to the program; it is a time for change and keep finding challenges; although the new program might not be as emotional there so many good aspect and is a bit more mature than the old one.

Sorry for a fan rant!

kriwyr1009 said:

Please don’t say such a thing about Nanami Abe. I feel so sad….
She had been Yuzu’s coach since 2005-2006 at least. I think she discovered and developed his faculties.
His success is of course due to his natural talent but depend on her way of the instruction.

...

Therefore, it was limit of training Sendai for him. If he leave Sendai, she must leave,too, But she has family including children in Japan….
She must send away Yuzuru with tears….

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You make me a bit weepy with this sentence... sigh... but it is so true!

Who knows... may be Hanyu will do like what Yuna has done and eventually go back to his child hood coach again once he became more more established, stronger and more experienced and do what he needs to do to become the very best. All talented kids have to grow up some how and mature in their own ways. There's no right or wrong method really, just whether it will work or not. Many are not so lucky. I am sure some tough love can lit more fire within him.

As for the title of this thread. It is to be expected really, consider just how absolutely mind blowing his original R&J is like a typhoon level FOUR, nearly knocked my socks off. Anything is certainly going to pale in comparison, I am just thankful this current R&J is better than last year's Notre Dame program, although certainly I am very disappointed he is compromising his artistry for a gold medal, since what was so exciting about watching him perform was the no holding back approach and constant attack, now it seems he is more careful and controlled. In anycase he is just doing what Mao and many are doing for their Olympic year program, playing safe, to stay well within their comfort zone rather than taking risks. It may or may not pay off... we will see.