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Thread: Orser and Wilson - just go back to Hanyu's 2012 LP and Fernandez's 2013 LP

  1. #16
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    I much prefer Yuzu's old Romeo, and his old costume...

  2. #17
    Mashimaro on Ice
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    Hanyu's old program was passionate and intense. One of my favorite programs in recent years. This new program feels so generic. I so wish he can go to a different choreographer who can bring out that passion in him again.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    Hanyu's old program was passionate and intense. One of my favorite programs in recent years. This new program feels so generic. I so wish he can go to a different choreographer who can bring out that passion in him again.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    Hanyu's old program was passionate and intense. One of my favorite programs in recent years. This new program feels so generic. I so wish he can go to a different choreographer who can bring out that passion in him again.
    I agree. But with a new program. I think people will always compare this program to R&J. Clearly coming out of the junior ranks he was capable of something as great as R&J so after a few years on the senior circuit theoretically he should be able to come up with something even better rather than fall back on something that people have seen (and have seen him perform almost as good as it can get, at that).

  5. #20
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    Hanyu admitted after FP he put too much focus on jumps because they were not good or consistent in practice and he was so nervous about them. I couldn't hear what he and Wilson were talking about in K&C, but some people online said Wilson pointed out to Hanyu he had taken away much of choreography of the FP while skating this time. Some Japanese media reported there were a lot of passion in the program in practice , but Hanyu looked tentative in FP, particularly in the beginning, and the passion was gone.
    It seems the problem was not choreography, but that he couldn't deliver the good of FP sufficiently this time. The program looked fantastic in practice videos.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaana View Post
    I just watched this program but don’t like it at all. Quite boring and I can see it wants to copy Chaplin program but not as good. I think Javier should skate to something more interesting than this.

    About Hanyu, I think the new program is better than I thought, with more intricate transitions than the old Romeo and Juliet. I really like it. Also the old R&J was choreographed by the Russian couple. I don’t know if Orser and Wilson can use a program choreographed by others. Do they need the Russians’ permissian? This Olympic season Russian Federation doesn’t allow most Russian coaches to help foreign skaters. So even if Orser and Wilson want to reuse the old program, I don’t know if the Russian Federation would allow that.

    Actually, I think this Nino Rota version of R&J is good enough to win Olympics and attract new audience if Hanyu skates it well. Many people on the forum including myself like it, and I see the Finnish audience like it too. Unlike last year when Hanyu was also almost clean, but the audience didn’t really like the Notre Dame de Paris program.

    In fact, I think the skater who needs to change program most urgently is Patrick Chan. Both his SP and LP are three seasons old, and they’re both uninspiring. If he’s looking to beat Hanyu and Javier, then he needs better programs than those two. Right now his programs are worse than both his competitiors.

  7. #22
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    No matter how he delivers it, or puts in the couple extra transitions he left out, the program simply isn't as good. The footwork sequences don't create inspired images and feelings like in the old program. The jumps aren't utilized to emphasize the whole program, but rather are slotted in as required elements...just look at how the Triple Axels are thrown in back-to-back right after the halfway mark. The buildup and purpose is gone. Also look at how they try to throw in his ina bauer as a huge "WOW" move at the end of the program in this new version, as compared to it being a soft and introspective transitional move in the previous program. It works far better as a stand-alone, unpretentious movement.

    This new program as a whole lacks the dramatic contrasts of the former program; Hanyu used to be explosive at the start and then have time to settle down with slower movements and genuine vulnerability. Now he is just kind of at the same level the whole time...it's too much of "that was nice, that was nice, that was nice". Nice isn't good enough and it becomes boring when done over and over and over.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Hanyu used to be explosive at the start and then have time to settle down with slower movements and genuine vulnerability. Now he is just kind of at the same level the whole time...it's too much of "that was nice, that was nice, that was nice". Nice isn't good enough and it becomes boring when done over and over and over.
    You’re only looking at it from an artistic point, but nowadays COP demands busy transitions and a lot of "that was nice, that was nice, that was nice" elements throughout the whole program, which is what Hanyu is doing in the new R&J program. You look at most of Chan’s programs, there are little artistic values, but he’s busy throughout the programs with transitions. That’s how you get high PCS. Hanyu is doing the same level of transitions and more difficult jumps than Chan this season. That’s the only way for him to beat Chan under COP. I think his Nino Rota R&J program is more artistic than Chan’s Four Seasons. But COP doesn’t allow him to settle down with slower movements like you preferred in the old R&J program. The only way Hanyu can get PCS closer to Chan is doing "that was nice, that was nice, that was nice" throughout the program.

    Also, don’t forget the Russian Federation. Maybe they’re unwilling to allow Orser and Wilson to reuse the old R&J program. So your question should not be directed to Orser and Wilson only, but should be directed to the Russion Fedreration also.

  9. #24
    Custom Title starryxskies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aesthetics View Post
    Also, don’t forget the Russian Federation. Maybe they’re unwilling to allow Orser and Wilson to reuse the old R&J program. So your question should not be directed to Orser and Wilson only, but should be directed to the Russion Fedreration also.
    I'm almost positive his old R&J was choreographed by his old coach Nanami Abe. What does this have to do with the Russian Fed?

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by starryxskies View Post
    I'm almost positive his old R&J was choreographed by his old coach Nanami Abe. What does this have to do with the Russian Fed?
    No, the old R&J was mainly choreographed by Natalia Bestemianova and Igor Bobrin. They also taught Hanyu how to present the program, so Hanyu’s artistry increased a lot that year under their guidance. Abe didn’t do much in the choreography and presentation of R&J. You can check Abe’s other works, including the works she did for Daisuke and Mura. All Abe’s works are pretty generic. She is incapable of choreographing such beautiful program like R&J.

    Hanyu asked to go to Russia to study with Bestemianova and Bobrin before he went to Orser, but was refused because the Russian Fed considered Hanyu a main rival and did not let B&B take him. So he had to go to Orser. I also think it’s impossible for him to work with B&B at least this season due to Russian Fed. It’s a pity, but that’s just how things work. I do hope he will have chance to work with B&B sometime in the future though.

    Well, for this season I can only hope Hanyu succeeds with his new R&J program. It’s also a nice program. I think most of the audience don’t know Hanyu has skated to the old R&J program and they will like the new R&J program. So for the sport’s popularity, the new R&J won’t hurt.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by doctor2014 View Post
    No, the old R&J was mainly choreographed by Natalia Bestemianova and Igor Bobrin. They also taught Hanyu how to present the program, so Hanyu’s artistry increased a lot that year under their guidance. Abe didn’t do much in the choreography and presentation of R&J. You can check Abe’s other works, including the works she did for Daisuke and Mura. All Abe’s works are pretty generic. She is incapable of choreographing such beautiful program like R&J.

    Hanyu asked to go to Russia to study with Bestemianova and Bobrin before he went to Orser, but was refused because the Russian Fed considered Hanyu a main rival and did not let B&B take him. So he had to go to Orser. I also think it’s impossible for him to work with B&B at least this season due to Russian Fed. It’s a pity, but that’s just how things work. I do hope he will have chance to work with B&B sometime in the future though.

    Well, for this season I can only hope Hanyu succeeds with his new R&J program. It’s also a nice program. I think most of the audience don’t know Hanyu has skated to the old R&J program and they will like the new R&J program. So for the sport’s popularity, the new R&J won’t hurt.
    They could have done good things, but I'm glad he stuck with Orser. With Hanyu's artistry, he could have very easily been pushed into "Russianizing" his skating (kinda like Mao in 2010) instead of maintaining his own identity.

  12. #27
    Custom Title starryxskies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doctor2014 View Post
    No, the old R&J was mainly choreographed by Natalia Bestemianova and Igor Bobrin. They also taught Hanyu how to present the program, so Hanyu’s artistry increased a lot that year under their guidance. Abe didn’t do much in the choreography and presentation of R&J. You can check Abe’s other works, including the works she did for Daisuke and Mura. All Abe’s works are pretty generic. She is incapable of choreographing such beautiful program like R&J.

    Hanyu asked to go to Russia to study with Bestemianova and Bobrin before he went to Orser, but was refused because the Russian Fed considered Hanyu a main rival and did not let B&B take him. So he had to go to Orser. I also think it’s impossible for him to work with B&B at least this season due to Russian Fed. It’s a pity, but that’s just how things work. I do hope he will have chance to work with B&B sometime in the future though.

    Well, for this season I can only hope Hanyu succeeds with his new R&J program. It’s also a nice program. I think most of the audience don’t know Hanyu has skated to the old R&J program and they will like the new R&J program. So for the sport’s popularity, the new R&J won’t hurt.
    Oh thanks for the info. Wikipedia states that it was done by Abe and I took it for face value since I wasn't much of a follower back then. I do understand the Russian politics. Not that it would make a difference in the men's field considering their situation anyway.... Funny how things work out

  13. #28
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aesthetics View Post
    Also, don’t forget the Russian Federation. Maybe they’re unwilling to allow Orser and Wilson to reuse the old R&J program.
    They can't do such a thing. It's not theirs to own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aesthetics View Post
    You’re only looking at it from an artistic point, but nowadays COP demands busy transitions and a lot of "that was nice, that was nice, that was nice" elements throughout the whole program, which is what Hanyu is doing in the new R&J program.
    His old R&J program already had quite a bit of transitions. That's something they could simply add more of with a return to the program. For example, the movements he does before the 3Lutz-half loop-3Sal in the current program...no reason that couldn't just be slotted into the old program as well. It would actually fit the music in that section of his old program better than it does in his current program, LOL!

  14. #29
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    Yuzu's old R&J is a perfect program for him in a perfect age, perfect stage... It is really hard for such a excitement as 12worlds to happen again because it's already been done to perfection.
    I personally wish him to try some new. agree with sequinsgalore "new Romeo & Juliet. It fits his skating style and though it's in the same style of his Romeo+Juliet from 2011-12, I see more refinement and elegance on this one. I feel like this program has OG potential if he delivers at Sochi."
    If the old R&J is passion, abandon etc. the new R&j is indeed refinement/nuance and elegance, which really showed Yuzu's improvement during this couple of years.
    like Paola D said "Hanyu admitted after FP he put too much focus on jumps...."
    I will wait to see how this program progressed as this season goes on and be prepared to be amazed by Yuzu time and time again. If Yuzu can perform this program perfectly to its full potential in Sochi, I believe he will definitely attract tons of new skating fans just like he did in 2012 worlds.

  15. #30
    Yuzu Tracker msteach3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by giulia95 View Post
    If Yuzuru was really free to decide about his Olys programs, as you claim, he wouldn’t have skated to PW SP two days ago for sure. The whole world knows about that issue because the kid screamed it out loud in Japan some months ago unfortunately in vain.

    No doubt Orser himself decided to apply the recycling policy to Yuzuru, differently from what he offered to Yuna Kim and Javi now for Olys. But,
    like it happened last season , it’s quite curious to realize how quickly some fans address all the responsabilities to Yuzu immediately.


    Finally I totally appreciate Mr.Orser amazing sense of humor when he suggested Yuzu not to read the forum , and expecially GS I would say , or he could discover the very shocking news his coach doesnt’t actually believe in him as an OGM contender.

    And it’s even funnier because of this:
    www.isuresults.com/ws/ws/wsmen.htm


    this anusual and odd situation doesn’t suggest an idyllic scenario at the CC , it suggests something like a comedy going on. Yesterday the last act happened beetwen Yuzu and Wilson, when Wilson was watching the other skaters at the boards instead of being with Yuzu waiting for his FS....

    hopefully Yuzu was not alone.. there was Pooh to cheer for him!
    OMG here we go again...are you really a Yuzu fan or is it more a hatred of Brian Orser that fuels your wrath? Come on, Orser is doing a great job with BOTH Yuzu and Javi as these guys certainly have a shot at a medal in Sochi. Yuzuru has recently said he is happy with keeping his SP as it gives him more time to focus on his LP.

    I happen to prefer the older R&J program, but reusing that from two years ago would never happen. I think this new version will get better and better and I look forward to watching it progress as the season goes on.

    Let your vendetta against Orser go and put your energy into cheering on Yuzu. Please!

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