Is Gracie Gold overhyped right now? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Is Gracie Gold overhyped right now?

Rachmaninoff

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 10, 2011
Hyping and hating seem to be more fun than just sticking to the simple truth ;)

Yes, and there seems to be a particular pattern with young talent: overhype them when they first arrive on the scene, then dismiss them entirely when they fail to dazzle everyone and win medals left and right. They're put on a pedestal, then come crashing down. A few bad competitions? They're a headcase who will never amount to anything in the competitive world. Lackluster presentation? They must have no capacity to give engaging, memorable performances, and never will. Body changes causing some struggling with jumps? Stick a fork in 'em; they're done.

None of which is true. Skaters have struggled for quite some time with one or more of the above and later went on to have some success. Look at Kostner and how long she struggled on the international scene before finding consistency. Look at "robotic" skaters like Shen and Zhao or Angela "Refrigerator Break" Nikodinov, and the great strides they eventually made in the presentation side of things. There's no reason to think because Gracie or anyone else is struggling with these things now, that she has no hope.

But people keep thinking in these extremes, no matter how many contradicting examples they see. Such is the way of the world, I suppose.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Yes, and there seems to be a particular pattern with young talent: overhype them when they first arrive on the scene, then dismiss them entirely when they fail to dazzle everyone and win medals left and right. They're put on a pedestal, then come crashing down. A few bad competitions? They're a headcase who will never amount to anything in the competitive world. Lackluster presentation? They must have no capacity to give engaging, memorable performances, and never will. Body changes causing some struggling with jumps? Stick a fork in 'em; they're done.

None of which is true. Skaters have struggled for quite some time with one or more of the above and later went on to have some success. Look at Kostner and how long she struggled on the international scene before finding consistency. Look at "robotic" skaters like Shen and Zhao or Angela "Refrigerator Break" Nikodinov, and the great strides they eventually made in the presentation side of things. There's no reason to think because Gracie or anyone else is struggling with these things now, that she has no hope.

But people keep thinking in these extremes, no matter how many contradicting examples they see. Such is the way of the world, I suppose.

You said it. Some skating fans are cruel, fickle, and irrational. They expect to see success in a skater and then when they don't live up to their expectations they get pretty nasty. And when a skater does really well, then they expect that skater to be that good until they retire and at the first signs of weakness they start to tear them down.

It really ruins the sport when people are so appallingly scathing about athletes. It's not their job to make you happy, and with the hours of work and money spent, it's not like they're not trying their best either.

I also don't understand why Gracie is getting such a bad rep from some people when she's had pretty good results last season even if they were up and down. US Nationals proved she's certainly one of the best the US has to offer and to be 3rd place of the non-YuNa/Carolina/Mao's at Worlds isn't bad.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Maybe it would be good for Gracie if the hype died down. These past two seasons, she has been a headcase who cannot handle the pressure of competition. Perhaps if less is expected of her, she wouldn't feel as much pressure when she competes. .

I wouldn't go so far as to call her a "headcase" - yes, she has been up-and-down (trending towards up at the end of the season). I don't think this is unusual for a skater making the transition to the top level. Look at Kostner, look at Ando, look at Osmond, look at Tuktamysheva...heck, look at Wagner. All have either experienced or are experiencing similar up/down trends in their competitive history.

I've only followed this stuff for 11 years, but seems to me that skaters like Kim (i.e. those who just show up and dominate throughout) are the exception, not the rule.

Yes, and there seems to be a particular pattern with young talent: overhype them when they first arrive on the scene, then dismiss them entirely when they fail to dazzle everyone and win medals left and right. They're put on a pedestal, then come crashing down. A few bad competitions? They're a headcase who will never amount to anything in the competitive world. Lackluster presentation? They must have no capacity to give engaging, memorable performances, and never will. Body changes causing some struggling with jumps? Stick a fork in 'em; they're done.

...

But people keep thinking in these extremes, no matter how many contradicting examples they see. Such is the way of the world, I suppose.

Yup...never ends. Vicious cycle. Actually, seems to be the skating community at large that's guilty of this...it's not always limited to just fans.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
I wouldn't go so far as to call her a "headcase" - yes, she has been up-and-down (trending towards up at the end of the season). I don't think this is unusual for a skater making the transition to the top level. Look at Kostner, look at Ando, look at Osmond, look at Tuktamysheva...heck, look at Wagner. All have either experienced or are experiencing similar up/down trends in their competitive history.

I've only followed this stuff for 11 years, but seems to me that skaters like Kim (i.e. those who just show up and dominate throughout) are the exception, not the rule.

Kim stands alone as someone who has never been off the podium her entire senior career. I could not find a single women in the last 30 years or so who had a similar record. Hey, Katrina Witt finished 14th at her first Europeans!

As for distant past: Only one woman: Barbara Ann Scott has had a similar record when she skated from 1941 to 1948.

Sonie Henie finished 8th at her first Olympics. Carol Heiss came close -- she was OTP only once, when she finished 4th at the 1953 World Championships (Tenny Albright was close too, only one 6th place Worlds (1951) and a WD in 1952 among a whole bunch of podium finished.
 

Rachmaninoff

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 10, 2011
I wouldn't go so far as to call her a "headcase" - yes, she has been up-and-down (trending towards up at the end of the season). I don't think this is unusual for a skater making the transition to the top level. Look at Kostner, look at Ando, look at Osmond, look at Tuktamysheva...heck, look at Wagner. All have either experienced or are experiencing similar up/down trends in their competitive history.

Yeah, and I'd even say most skaters period have ups and downs, whether they're just entering top level or they've been to two or three Olympics. There really aren't too many Michelle Kwans or Yu Na Kims around (and even they had their disappointments, although they still ended up on the podium for the most part anyway).

Kim stands alone as someone who has never been off the podium her entire senior career. I could not find a single women in the last 30 years or so who had a similar record. Hey, Katrina Witt finished 14th at her first Europeans!

As for distant past: Only one woman: Barbara Ann Scott has had a similar record when she skated from 1941 to 1948.

Sonie Henie finished 8th at her first Olympics. Carol Heiss came close -- she was OTP only once, when she finished 4th at the 1953 World Championships (Tenny Albright was close too, only one 6th place Worlds (1951) and a WD in 1952 among a whole bunch of podium finished.

Well, just to be fair, there may have been a few others in that category if they were forced to wait until age 15/16 to enter the senior ranks. Michelle Kwan, as the most obvious example, wasn't on top at her first senior worlds, but she was only 13 at the time. Tara Lipinski and Sarah Hughes were also both 13 at their first senior worlds. Sonja Henie was 11 at her first Olympics.

Of course, the main point still stands: Yu Na Kim is a rare bird.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I think the main reason that so much attention has been devoted to Gracie, following her successful LP at Nationals and a good placement at Worlds, is that US skating fans and the skating establishment has never been 100% sold on Ashley Wagner as the flag-bearer. Ashley is good, but...

Now that Gracie hype has leveled off, we are looking ever younger. We have a thread on this very forum titled, "Polina Edmonds is better than Gracie and is the best US lady by far!"
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
I think the main reason that so much attention has been devoted to Gracie, following her successful LP at Nationals and a good placement at Worlds, is that US skating fans and the skating establishment has never been 100% sold on Ashley Wagner as the flag-bearer. Ashley is good, but...

Now that Gracie hype has leveled off, we are looking ever younger. We have a thread on this very forum titled, "Polina Edmonds is better than Gracie and is the best US lady by far!"

I agree with that. Wagner is a step up on Flattzzz as U.S #1, but she also isnt enough to fully satisfy many people. Especialy with her failure thus far to win a World medal. So they are still constantly searching for the next big thing. If they cant find the next Michelle Kwan, even the next Sasha Cohen (preferably getting that gold at some point though) will do. Someone who will capture American public interest in U.S ladies again, that is what they need and want, and are desperately (maybe a little too hard) seeking.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I agree with that. Wagner is a step up on Flattzzz as U.S #1, but she also isnt enough to fully satisfy many people. Especialy with her failure thus far to win a World medal. So they are still constantly searching for the next big thing. If they cant find the next Michelle Kwan, even the next Sasha Cohen (preferably getting that gold at some point though) will do. Someone who will capture American public interest in U.S ladies again, that is what they need and want, and are desperately (maybe a little too hard) seeking.

To be fair, she's only been good in the past two seasons, and ended up 4th and 5th. Plus her 5th was in a field with Yu Na/Mao/Carolina, so she can hardly be blamed for being off the podium (peaked too early last season). She had a much better shot a year before but lost it in the SP. She's still had excellent results (the best of any US lady last year by far) -- she had 2 GP wins and a silver at the GPF, and should make a push for Sochi bronze. Certainly when the favourites retire after the Olympics or have their post-Olympics slump she'll be a favourite for a World medal. To look for the next Kwan (especially when Kwan was lucky enough to not need 3-3 combos to win) is a bit short sighted.

It's always nice to look for the next Kwan, Ito, or Kim, but it's not really fair to compare up and coming skaters to them and put these expectations that they will be the next ________, and if they don't meet those expectations in a few seasons, then they go out with the bathwater and people look to the next best thing. That's pretty brutal. These are athletes and human beings, not pieces of clothing that are suddenly in-season and then you toss them out.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
To be fair, she's only been good in the past two seasons, and ended up 4th and 5th. Plus her 5th was in a field with Yu Na/Mao/Carolina, so she can hardly be blamed for being off the podium (peaked too early last season).

Well, it wasn't like the top 3 were just there as place holders. Kim had 3x3 in both programs, Asada had 3A, executed 7/8 triples, Kostner had 3x3 in both programs.
Don't think anyone thought she should be on the podium. The problem people had was she talked big talk about big combos, and didn't deliver. If the better skaters had to bring it to big competition, who is she to think she can do 2 triples in the SP, and 6 triples in the LP and be anywhere near the podium.
 

kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!
Record Breaker
Joined
May 19, 2011
I don't think Gracie is as hyped a year later as she was around this time last year when everyone was 100% positive she was the second coming. I think people can see her for what she is now: a skater who is still trying to grow and figure it out.

Judging Gracie by the expectations that were heaped upon her last year, she failed considerably. The way she was hyped coming into last season I was expecting her to win both of her GP events, make the Final, win nationals and place top 5 at worlds. She did none of that.

Judging Gracie by the standards that the majority of debuting seniors are held to, she had a very good season. She medaled at one of her events (it took Mirai and Agnes multiple seasons before they medaled at an event), won silver at nationals and placed 6th at worlds. Those are very good accomplishments for a debut season. I think the outcome of last season has erased the fantasy and injected a strong dose of reality into most overzealous Gracie fans. She's not soup yet. She has the talent but she needs work and now that everyone knows that, I think people will ease up a little and give her some time.

I'm sure Frank is the reason Gracie has faded from the spotlight since he officially became her coach and that's the way it should be. They need time to adjust to their situation. They've got a little over two weeks before Gracie is thrown into the spotlight at Skate Canada and, because she is with Frank, there will be expectations for her there as well. I'm interested to see what improvements (if any) she's made under him so far...
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Well, it wasn't like the top 3 were just there as place holders. Kim had 3x3 in both programs, Asada had 3A, executed 7/8 triples, Kostner had 3x3 in both programs.
Don't think anyone thought she should be on the podium. The problem people had was she talked big talk about big combos, and didn't deliver. If the better skaters had to bring it to big competition, who is she to think she can do 2 triples in the SP, and 6 triples in the LP and be anywhere near the podium.

That was my point though... the top 3 were scored such that the podium was practically a lock for them. Asada and Kostner even scored PBs in what clearly weren't the best performances of their career. Also, Asada executed 6/7 triples (5 cleanly if we give count the flutz).
 

lcd

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 11, 2007
It does feel like a bit of a two-way street. She is very charming and active on social media, but when her content includes clips of her doing triple triple combos left and right, it is obviously provocative in both a potentially positive and negative way (depending on your perspective). It seems very clear the people advising her have shut the "machine" down a bit on their end and this has had a quieting effect which is probably very helpful. New coach, new training environment and a lot of work to do. Hype is distracting. She'll be back on the hot seat in 2 weeks come Skate Canada so Team Gold should take this as a welcome respite.
 

Jammers

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Country
United-States
It does feel like a bit of a two-way street. She is very charming and active on social media, but when her content includes clips of her doing triple triple combos left and right, it is obviously provocative in both a potentially positive and negative way (depending on your perspective). It seems very clear the people advising her have shut the "machine" down a bit on their end and this has had a quieting effect which is probably very helpful. New coach, new training environment and a lot of work to do. Hype is distracting. She'll be back on the hot seat in 2 weeks come Skate Canada so Team Gold should take this as a welcome respite.
Frank i think is just what Gracie needs now. He knows the hype wasn't a good thing for Gracie and he's kept her pretty much out of sight. It was reaching a boiling point a few weeks ago after the SLC event and it coming out that she had no coach. Best thing for Gracie might be to not make the GPF so she can have more time to train with Frank.
 

NYscorp6

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
Country
United-States
When a skater has the techincal ability that Gracie does I don't feel as if she is being overhyped at all. Obviously we in the US are always on the look out for the next female skating star to burst unto the scene and to be able to deliver results on the international stage. Are the expectations being rushed? Perhaps, it has been awhile since a US lady has created this type of buzz though.........
 

Jammers

Record Breaker
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Nov 4, 2010
Country
United-States
When a skater has the techincal ability that Gracie does I don't feel as if she is being overhyped at all. Obviously we in the US are always on the look out for the next female skating star to burst unto the scene and to be able to deliver results on the international stage. Are the expectations being rushed? Perhaps, it has been awhile since a US lady has created this type of buzz though.........
True. Considering back in 2011 our top US Ladies like Alissa, Mirai, Rachael and Ashley weren't even trying 3-3's and here was this Junior skater knocking them out like nobodies business it got everyone excited despite Gracie obviously being a raw talent. If you can jump you have a chance to do something in this sport and after seeing our top Ladies not be able to jump seeing a young skater who had this kind of technical ability was hopeful.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
I don't think Gracie is being overhyped right now. I think Mirai and Alissa are.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
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Jan 4, 2010
Mirai is almost done. My jaw wouldn't drop if she does well.
Alissa is done. My jaw would drop and join the jaw of that anarchist from Christiania in jaw heaven if she can make top 5.
 

tulosai

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 21, 2011
Not if you read all the posts in the Alissa and Mirai threads. :rolleye:

Yeah, I don't agree that Mirai is necessarily done. She is doing just as well as any other American at the moment internationally (other than Ashley) and contrary to what many people seem to think (or maybe they just don't think about it) she could have one more Oly cycle in her after this one if she stays healthy and if it's what she wants. If she's likely to improve is another question, but there have been many people who I (and/or the vast majority of fans) have tried to stick a fork in in the past who have later had their best years ahead of them (Kostner, for one. Wangner, for another. Czisny, actually, for another, despite what's happening now).

Czisny is a different question. This is her do or die year, she has no more Oly cycles in her (not just because of age but also because of injury, obviously) and since it is obvious her dream is the Olys, she will be done after this year. Given everything, her chances are not promising, and she probably can't make it happen. However, I don't necessarily believe she's done either- I wouldn't bet my life on it. She had a decent showing at regionals given everything. Only time will tell how the season unfolds.
 
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