The Skating Lesson - Hating on the Shibs and Davis/White as people | Page 6 | Golden Skate

The Skating Lesson - Hating on the Shibs and Davis/White as people

caitie

Medalist
Joined
Sep 14, 2013
Kind of late to the thread, but I enjoy the TSL for what it is -- they certainly aren't pretending to be an unbiased (if such a thing is even possible in a sport that involves so much subjectivity) news source. I enjoy the tone of the show. I don't think it's mean-spirited, but it can be a little sarcastic and gossipy and reminds me of discussing the sport with friends and exclaiming over bad costumes or music and gushing over your favorite skaters, and so forth. Granted I haven't had a chance to watch the episode in question, but I watched the one they recorded on the same day, and they talked about Davis/White (and Virtue/Moir) and they seemed as complimentary of both teams as ever, and I pretty much agreed with their criticisms of the programs and analysis of the differences between the teams. Sometimes they do get down on them for specific things that probably seem unfair to super fans, and maybe are even unfair. I don't agree with them about everything. But I can't say that it's affected my enjoyment of their content as a whole, at least not yet!
 

kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!
Record Breaker
Joined
May 19, 2011
They are two people with an opinion and I'm grateful for them. There is no other weekly recap/discussion regarding skating anywhere else out there so to be able to listen to a discussion rather than read one on a forum, which is the only place I can discuss skating since no one else I know actually watches it, is a welcome treat.

I agree with them praising Ashley for voicing her opinion on the anti-gay law matter:thumbsup:. Everyone who deflected is probably scared of whatever possible ramifications there could be for speaking their mind which is, IMO, ****** up. Everyone has an opinion on the anti-gay law: you're either for it, against it, or indifferent to it...but you do have some kind of original thought in your brain. Meryl and Charlie saying that hadn't discussed it among themselves was pretty weak. Yes, they are a pair but does that mean their ideas/opinions have to be a consensus? Aren't they individual people with a mind of their own? Throwing all of the responsibility on the USOC to give your stance on the issue for you is a lame cop out as well.

I applaud Ashley for speaking her mind. She's never been the cookie cutter pageant girl which is one of the reasons I have so much respect for her. She stated her position in the matter, made her point, and did it in a respectful way. She's a person with a brain and an opinion...given the responses from everyone else, the same can't be said for the rest of them. :sarcasm: Even if they are just keeping their opinions to themselves, what Jenny said is right: these athletes do have a platform. I think the reason everyone passed on the question is b/c they're scared or don't want to get involved. But then there's that saying about two kinds of bad people in the world: ones who do bad things, and ones who see bad things happening but don't do anything about it. I'm not saying the skaters need to take drastic steps to protesting what's going on but simply stating an opinion is powerful enough. Considering that the gay community is largely represented in skating, you'd think more skaters would step up and say something. Everyone is too afraid to speak out against it...it's sad.
 
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Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Given the amount mixed messages given by USOC/IOC, I don't blame them for being scared to respond. I've tried to read up on the issue and I have absolutely no clue what the USOC/IOC is advocating.

Upon further thought, I just ambushing a bunch of athletes think a news conference is not the best approach to getting a statement. Ashley was a huge exception, but not everyone feels comfortable with talking about such a hot issue in that setting. I think if the journalists sincerely wanted to know what these folks thought, perhaps it would have been beneficial to ask the question in a one-to-one interview (there were plenty of opportunities for them).

And how do we know these athletes aren't doing anything RE: Gay rights? Just because they don't speak out of it at one press conference, doesn't mean they aren't doing anything. Maybe they prefer to do things in a more quiet manner? Point is, we can't base a skater's viewpoint/actions on a single statement (or lack of one).

Back to TSL, certainly Dave and Jenny are entitled to their opinion, but they should be held accountable if the information they state is wrong or incorrect. Insinuating that the Shibtuanis lied about W/Ding or bribed their way to the World Team with no proof of such is wrong.

IF they were a press outlet -- which they aren't, I guess (then why get press credentials?) -- they would be sued for libel.

But since "it's just an opinion" I guess they can say whatever. :sarcasm:
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
As a team, when one speaks, it tends to be considered from "all" on the team whether this is right or wrong. D/W did the right thing by not giving their opinion separately without consulting one another/US Figure Skating/USOC because this IS a political issue in the country that is hosting the Olympics. In addition to that, by not having discussed it among themselves and this question being sprung on them, there is the possibility of mis-speaking or not speaking with clarity in the heat of the moment which can be off-putting to the public. Frankly, I don't think it's a fair question to ask them.
 

leafygreens

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
You're right, that was mean of me. Sorry. :eek::

As for Alissa Czisny of Bowling Green, Ohio, appearing in the ad for Chrysler of Auburn Hills, Michigan, featuring rapper Eminem of Rochester, Michigan, here is the follow-up ad: Perseverance. :rock: :love: :love:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lc41XPkPdec

I don't have a problem with her not being from the streets, I just threw that out there to say what she did was no different than D/W's comments. Both Alissa's comments and D/W's could be considered reaching (what does figure skating have to do with a car manufacturing city), but they were very gracious. I enjoyed Alissa's ad (anything that gets skating on TV.) She did and does persevere, the topic of the commercial, and D/W also work hard despite being from wealthy families. Wealth will not buy the judge's scores.
 

TheCzar

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Personally as a response to the 180 on Meryl and Charlie, I think they say it why it's unsavoury- it's because the athletes themselves have failed to not only show solidarity amongst the fellow skaters but also because yes the answers they have given come off vapid and gratuitous. Ashley Wagner's response in comparison should be the way to go. And I agree with their evaluation of what the skaters are like- i've seen the video they pertained to (the one where the skaters choose the music they'd want to skate to) and Meryl did come of as an airhead. MAYBE she DOES want to skate to Scheherazade as a lifelong dream, but a.) that wasn't the question, and b.)- MISS AMERICA could not have said it any better. Plus you can see in the video, Charlie kind of just shut down once Meryl took the reins. But- whatever, maybe I'm wrong.


Going back to the original point- this issue with regards to Sochi and the gay- it goes beyond skating. YES, saying something remotely human and compassionate in support of the fight against Putin may cost you the OGM, but really- surely they seem smart enough to give a response that is PC but also one that promotes support instead of going around in circles to avoid the topic like Scott Hamilton.

Though I don't always appreciate the candour of TSL, I would take them over Hersh or Gallagher any day. Maybe I'm just less sensitive. It's not the end of the world you guys! Somewhere in some corner of the world, there are two people who are saying the EXACT same thing, just less public that TSL. At least to their defence, TSL gives credit where credit is due.
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Country
United-States
We already are talking about it. As is TSL...more than any other outlet in North America or Europe (that I know of).

Take their opinions as you will. Regardless of whether you agree or not, everything they say has a point. It's not empty "tabloid rag" banter.

Like when they were wondering how Miki Ando would be able to do a spiral with lactating breasts?

And when they said Adam Rippon wanted a DNA test?

And Jason Brown impregnated her with his pony tail?

Or when they wondered if the baby had slicked back Russian hair?

On second thought, maybe they didn't say that. Maybe I'm confused, and I read that in the New York Times.

Anyway... these are not people whose opinions carry a great deal of weight for me. And they shouldn't for any adult.

And to imply that they are "journalists" is a slap in the face to every professional in that line of work.
 

LiamForeman

William/Uilyam
Medalist
Joined
Nov 24, 2006
Like when they were wondering how Miki Ando would be able to do a spiral with lactating breasts?

And when they said Adam Rippon wanted a DNA test?

And Jason Brown impregnated her with his pony tail?

Or when they wondered if the baby had slicked back Russian hair?

On second thought, maybe they didn't say that. Maybe I'm confused, and I read that in the New York Times.

Anyway... these are not people whose opinions carry a great deal of weight for me. And they shouldn't for any adult.

And to imply that they are "journalists" is a slap in the face to every professional in that line of work.

Umm, I've watched every TSL podcast and you are just making this up. You are not well, and you need some help, fellow. What zip code are you, I will get you an appointment tomorrow. Please get (back) on your meds.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Umm, I've watched every TSL podcast and you are just making this up. You are not well, and you need some help, fellow. What zip code are you, I will get you an appointment tomorrow. Please get (back) on your meds.

No it is not being made up! He did wonder how Miki would skate with lactating breasts or if Jason Brown impregnated her with his pony tail Ala Avatar.
 

TheCzar

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Their dry sense of humour and candour isn't for everyone, and if it's not for you- that's fair enough. Why then, do you insist on watching their videos?

If someone like Ashley Wagner, who they have 'ragged on' about so many times have enough chill pills to still agree to an interview with her cool kept, why are you so aggravated by it? And I don't mean that in a horrible way, I just want to know why you are personally affected by TSL?
 

MasterB

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 18, 2004
No, no, no, really, it would not be a shame. Their 15 minutes of infamy, has gone on way too long. On too many occasions I've seen them sprout innuendo and personal opinion as fact. I have no respect/tolerance for that. People work too hard for reckless people to do that. There are way too many tabloid rags around. It's time for some real integrity where the coverage of the sport is concerned.

Their timely demise would just clear the way for a better product to come to the fore. No I repeat it would not be a shame if they were no more but a welcome relief. They can't be allowed to continue as is. No.:mad: Now can we talk about figure skating?

Perhaps you are right but, who among us can do it? The one thing I will say in their defense is that to maintain the blog requires a tremendous amount of time and dedication. As much as I wish I could do it I just do not have that kind of time. SO, I will take the good with the bad.

Jenny for the most part has remained professional but, every now and then she gets off the line and I can live with that. Dave, doesn't get the respect mostly because he is not a past champion but, I have met him and he dedicates a lot of research to This and That.

The thing that has set them off is that many people are not standing up to the sochi spectacle and it has pissed them off beyond belief. Because this is their own blog and they are not working for a major network they are free to speak as they feel. It is up to us as the viewers to decide to agree with them or not. When I don't like what they say I respectfully give them feedback and hope they can improve but, I do not wish for them to end what they have started.
 

spikydurian

Medalist
Joined
Jan 15, 2012
Also, anyone who personally attacks Dave has most likely never met him. He's one of the nicest guys you could know. He just has opinions, but believe me if he felt he was personally hurting someone he'd stop. It's just a difference in cultures I guess. On a scale of 1 to 10 for being a friend, Dave is at least a 9. Always there, compassionate. Just because he goes off on some Meryl idiocy doesn't make him evil. Meryl did sound like an idiot. And frankly I think her remarks and comments DID make her seem unlikeable. Next week with some training maybe she'll get on track to a more likeable persona. Oh well, it seems like the haterade for TSL is flowing hard today. Just stop the personal attacks. I don't know Jenny, but I do know Dave (though not well) and he is very funny and very kind and very compassionate.

Unfortunately, Dave did not come across as nice, funny, kind and compassionate to some of us. If you want one example of journalist I personally think who had come across as compassionate and kind, was the late Randy Starkman from Canada. And I am sure Randy was loved and respected by many whom he had interviewed.

There is a difference between stating one's opinion in a manner which conveys respect or mockery.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Perhaps you are right but, who among us can do it? The one thing I will say in their defense is that to maintain the blog requires a tremendous amount of time and dedication. As much as I wish I could do it I just do not have that kind of time. SO, I will take the good with the bad.

Jenny for the most part has remained professional but, every now and then she gets off the line and I can live with that. Dave, doesn't get the respect mostly because he is not a past champion but, I have met him and he dedicates a lot of research to This and That.

The thing that has set them off is that many people are not standing up to the sochi spectacle and it has pissed them off beyond belief. Because this is their own blog and they are not working for a major network they are free to speak as they feel. It is up to us as the viewers to decide to agree with them or not. When I don't like what they say I respectfully give them feedback and hope they can improve but, I do not wish for them to end what they have started.

While I don't agree with the approach, I definitely admire their willingness to do this. As someone that keeps a blog professionally, I know it's a lot of work to maintain it. So I don't doubt that they've put a lot of work and effort.

If you don't care for the snark, but like the interview approach, the Manleywoman Skatecast is great: http://www.manleywoman.com/
 

LauraV

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
My guess is that Dave Lease's comments about Meryl were intemperate BECAUSE he is such a big fan of hers. Just a couple weeks ago, he was gushing to the point of breathlessness about her skating, her looks, her costumes, her programs, etc. She didn't come up with the answer he wanted on an issue that's important to him and he overreacted. I admire the fact that he is honest enough to hold his favorites to the same standards as anyone else, but mimicking her voice was tacky and calling her "unrelatable" was a mistake, and a silly, easily disprovable one at that. I agree with Dave that the Russian law is vile, but I wish he had expressed his disappointment in a more grown up way. Still, it's his right to disapprove, and frankly, I imagine he'll move on and I would bet he'll think better of his means of disapproval before long.

Athletes who are competing in the Olympics are signing up for a sporting event, not running for political office. If they want to express their opinions on political issues, fine, but they shouldn't be required to do that. The public is awfully fickle. How often do we hear celebrities and athletes mocked for their presumption when they make political statements - or worse (ask the Dixie Chicks about that.) Yet here we have a case when athletes are being raked over the coals because they didn't get up on a soapbox. Dave and Jenny might want to ponder that paradox going forward.

In any case, Dave and Jenny's opinions don't bother me - everybody's got one on every subject. I do think they'd be better advised not to suggest or speculate that athletes are faking injuries unless they have some pretty convincing proof in hand. That really is unprofessional and will hurt their reputations in the long run. Their comments on the Shibs and Tessa Virtue were over the line and they need to reconsider their approach on that point. That kind of speculation does happen on message boards like this one, but they aren't commenting on a message board. I hope they will rethink their approach on that subject.

I think TSL is a lot of fun in a lot of ways. Skating fans are starved for media attention to the sport, and I do appreciate that they post videos and updates regularly - they are doing more to stimulate interest and conversation about figure skating than NBC or any major news outlet, so more power to them. If they would just exercise a little more professional restraint when appropriate, they would be doing fine.

I sometimes think skating fans have unrealistic expectations about how skaters should be treated by the press, for the simple reason that the major sports media pays so little attention to the sport. Imagine if skating was a frequent topic on sports talk radio! TSL is a warm baby's bath compared to the treatment that say, NFL players get every day on your radio dial.

FWIW, if Dave's friends are going to post here in his defense, fine, but I'd suggest they idle back on the defensiveness. If Dave is aggressive and uninhibited on TSL, he's going to reap some aggressive and uninhibited criticism too - it comes with the territory.
 

lcd

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 11, 2007
I actually don't that the majority of people who are fans of the sport enough to pay attention to blogs, chat boards and the like, have any real issues with the fact that Jenny and Dave are expressing their opinions. Even the manner in which they often do, unfortunately to a frequent enough extent, would be typically described as "catty" or "not professional", I think most people in 2013 understand that it sort of "comes with the territory" in this day of social media, blogs, etc.

What seems to me, to have touched so many nerves, is the fact that both Jenny and Dave went beyond. They crossed a few very significant lines.

1. They are commenting about skating that has not even taken place or been seen by anyone (i.e., the Shibs and their programs).
2. They are making allegations which go beyond simply insulting, and are actually bordering on libelous - about people that they admit that they have never met (and at this point, probably never will) and are drawing conclusions from statements for which they have no idea of the context in which they were made.

Given their stated mission of being like a "hub" or "resource" for skaters, their parents (huh?) and fans - they establish the expectation that they should be taken seriously. Clearly there is a big disconnect.

Aside from the actual videos, and not just from 10/6 but also from the week before, where some of the comments about the Shibs were made, it is worth noting some of the comments posted below the videos, from people who obviously DO pay attention to TSL. A few stand out for their tone which balances both support and candor.


Robby A
OCTOBER 6, 2013

Hi guys! Always enjoy your podcasts. You both bring a lot of energy to your videos and they are for the most part really enjoyable. Just had to say, the level of hatred the two of you obviously have for the Shibutani’s – whoooee – really stands out. It is becoming amongst the things you want to be known for. Hating on the ShibSibs!

I have no problem with snark in podcasts. Colorful opinions are entertaining. You guys are 100% entitled to sharing yours. Recent comments about them though obviously go well beyond, and we haven’t even seen them skate yet this season!

Last week for instance you essentially called the Shibutanis out for being LIARS for their reasons for not skating at US Classic. You also claim “a lot of people” think they are undeserving of their marks.

Dave also insinuated that money has inappropriately been involved in their making the last three world teams. That would be bribery and fraud.

I guess I just find it jarring that your hatred for them goes beyond their skating. You guys really hate on them as people too, don’t you, and it isn’t even related to the Russian anti-gay issue?!? What gives?

From their music announcement it sounds like they put a lot of thought into their programs. Dave said after seeing costume photos that they “look about 12 years old, I think the whole thing is a giant mistake”

Disappointing. Would have thought you guys would wait to see the actual programs and skating.



Eun Wander
OCTOBER 7, 2013

I agree with Robbie. Jenny, your reply to Robbie, while technically “correct” fell way short of addressing the obvious reality.

I don’t think anybody who chooses to watch your videos has any issue with the fact that you have an opinion on who you prefer or think is stronger as a skater. Having different opinions is great. Having favorites and supporting them is all good. It’s just been so consistent that you guys show such obvious pleasure in bashing the Shibs. You say you “respect” them, but it is a really strange way to show it.

You, Dave and TSL really disdain the Shibutanis, and that is “fine” you don’t have to like them as skaters or people. You’re entitled to have your opinion. But saying that “you” did not call them something when you did, just doesn’t fly. You and Dave and TSL are all linked and that I would bet that would true from a common sense and legal sense as well

You guys always say that in skating perception is reality. It is really the same thing when you take such pleasure in creating the impression that they were not legitimately injured.

By bringing their credibility into question, you are saying they are dishonest and that they lied. This speaks to character and is directly related to your view of them as people and who they are off ice.

They have yet to show their programs but Jenny and Dave are making sure people perceive them as childish and their entire approach to the sport this season is a giant mistake.

Like Robbie said, that is really really disappointing because I too enjoy some of your videos. The interviews with coaches and choreographers especially.

It is not puzzling to me. You guys enthusiastically chose to cross the line, but when you do so with some of what I would think are some of the most decent people currently in the sport like the Shibutanis and Davis and White, you are show your true colors.

Just don’t expect decent people to find it OK.



James
OCTOBER 7, 2013

I was so disappointed to see such hateful discussion here. Dave may be a “blogger”, but Jenny should know better. These skaters have dedicated their lives to something and that alone warrants more respect than is shown here.

Opinions on skating, programs, costumes, etc are one thing, but your blatant attack on hard-working athletes and their character is deplorable.

Do you know these people? Who are you to say who they are and are not?

And if you are under the impression that you speak for the masses on the topic of what is likable/relatable and what isn’t, you should know that there are many who disagree with you.

I hope you consider the limitations of your own knowledge of these skaters, their characters and their stories before you fervently express your opinions next.

Lastly, perhaps these skaters have the right idea… when speaking to an issue you may know little about, less really is more.
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Country
United-States
Umm, I've watched every TSL podcast and you are just making this up. You are not well, and you need some help, fellow. What zip code are you, I will get you an appointment tomorrow. Please get (back) on your meds.

Unfortunately, I'm unable to link to the exact podcast... I got an admin message that they were a "commercial site" not affiliated with GS.

However, you can do what I did, which is to google "TSL Miki Ando" and you'll have absolutely no problem getting to the podcast in question.

I'd like an apology, assuming you are man enough to admit you're wrong.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
My guess is that Dave Lease's comments about Meryl were intemperate BECAUSE he is such a big fan of hers. Just a couple weeks ago, he was gushing to the point of breathlessness about her skating, her looks, her costumes, her programs, etc. She didn't come up with the answer he wanted on an issue that's important to him and he overreacted. I admire the fact that he is honest enough to hold his favorites to the same standards as anyone else, but mimicking her voice was tacky and calling her "unrelatable" was a mistake, and a silly, easily disprovable one at that. I agree with Dave that the Russian law is vile, but I wish he had expressed his disappointment in a more grown up way. Still, it's his right to disapprove, and frankly, I imagine he'll move on and I would bet he'll think better of his means of disapproval before long.

Athletes who are competing in the Olympics are signing up for a sporting event, not running for political office. If they want to express their opinions on political issues, fine, but they shouldn't be required to do that. The public is awfully fickle. How often do we hear celebrities and athletes mocked for their presumption when they make political statements - or worse (ask the Dixie Chicks about that.) Yet here we have a case when athletes are being raked over the coals because they didn't get up on a soapbox. Dave and Jenny might want to ponder that paradox going forward.

In any case, Dave and Jenny's opinions don't bother me - everybody's got one on every subject. I do think they'd be better advised not to suggest or speculate that athletes are faking injuries unless they have some pretty convincing proof in hand. That really is unprofessional and will hurt their reputations in the long run. Their comments on the Shibs and Tessa Virtue were over the line and they need to reconsider their approach on that point. That kind of speculation does happen on message boards like this one, but they aren't commenting on a message board. I hope they will rethink their approach on that subject.

I think TSL is a lot of fun in a lot of ways. Skating fans are starved for media attention to the sport, and I do appreciate that they post videos and updates regularly - they are doing more to stimulate interest and conversation about figure skating than NBC or any major news outlet, so more power to them. If they would just exercise a little more professional restraint when appropriate, they would be doing fine.

I sometimes think skating fans have unrealistic expectations about how skaters should be treated by the press, for the simple reason that the major sports media pays so little attention to the sport. Imagine if skating was a frequent topic on sports talk radio! TSL is a warm baby's bath compared to the treatment that say, NFL players get every day on your radio dial.

FWIW, if Dave's friends are going to post here in his defense, fine, but I'd suggest they idle back on the defensiveness. If Dave is aggressive and uninhibited on TSL, he's going to reap some aggressive and uninhibited criticism too - it comes with the territory.

I couldn't have said it better myself. I actually do think they offer a lot to the discussion, but some of the extremely catty/libelous comments have really soured things for me.

RE: Sports talk radio: I don't know how to best explain this nuance, but I find that sports talk radio folks don't seem so personal when joshing NFL players or trash talking them. They are so OTT with some of their descriptions that you know it's satire not a personal attack.

I really felt that Dave's comments regarding Meryl did seem like a personal attack because of the context it was said (and if the posts about Dave being hurt by Meryl's comments are true, then it did seem like a jerky reaction to her response regarding the Russian law). I think if TSL were joking around about how Meryl sounded like a Disney princess or something (I mean how many times have we mentioned this on these boards?!), that's a whole other thing, as I said, satire.

ETA: I think the other thing is the frequency and general context they talk about skaters. Are the Shibutanis, for instance, so useless as Ice Dancers that you can't have a single positive segment about them? What about their creative and fun YouTube videos?

If TSL was your only source on figure skating, the only thing you would know about the Shibs is that they're "childish-looking skaters" who bribe their way to the U.S. Nationals podium (and the Worlds team.)


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