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Thread: The Skating Lesson - Hating on the Shibs and Davis/White as people

  1. #106
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    Personally as a response to the 180 on Meryl and Charlie, I think they say it why it's unsavoury- it's because the athletes themselves have failed to not only show solidarity amongst the fellow skaters but also because yes the answers they have given come off vapid and gratuitous. Ashley Wagner's response in comparison should be the way to go. And I agree with their evaluation of what the skaters are like- i've seen the video they pertained to (the one where the skaters choose the music they'd want to skate to) and Meryl did come of as an airhead. MAYBE she DOES want to skate to Scheherazade as a lifelong dream, but a.) that wasn't the question, and b.)- MISS AMERICA could not have said it any better. Plus you can see in the video, Charlie kind of just shut down once Meryl took the reins. But- whatever, maybe I'm wrong.


    Going back to the original point- this issue with regards to Sochi and the gay- it goes beyond skating. YES, saying something remotely human and compassionate in support of the fight against Putin may cost you the OGM, but really- surely they seem smart enough to give a response that is PC but also one that promotes support instead of going around in circles to avoid the topic like Scott Hamilton.

    Though I don't always appreciate the candour of TSL, I would take them over Hersh or Gallagher any day. Maybe I'm just less sensitive. It's not the end of the world you guys! Somewhere in some corner of the world, there are two people who are saying the EXACT same thing, just less public that TSL. At least to their defence, TSL gives credit where credit is due.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    We already are talking about it. As is TSL...more than any other outlet in North America or Europe (that I know of).

    Take their opinions as you will. Regardless of whether you agree or not, everything they say has a point. It's not empty "tabloid rag" banter.
    Like when they were wondering how Miki Ando would be able to do a spiral with lactating breasts?

    And when they said Adam Rippon wanted a DNA test?

    And Jason Brown impregnated her with his pony tail?

    Or when they wondered if the baby had slicked back Russian hair?

    On second thought, maybe they didn't say that. Maybe I'm confused, and I read that in the New York Times.

    Anyway... these are not people whose opinions carry a great deal of weight for me. And they shouldn't for any adult.

    And to imply that they are "journalists" is a slap in the face to every professional in that line of work.

  3. #108
    Sometimes bad skating happens to good people... LiamForeman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
    Like when they were wondering how Miki Ando would be able to do a spiral with lactating breasts?

    And when they said Adam Rippon wanted a DNA test?

    And Jason Brown impregnated her with his pony tail?

    Or when they wondered if the baby had slicked back Russian hair?

    On second thought, maybe they didn't say that. Maybe I'm confused, and I read that in the New York Times.

    Anyway... these are not people whose opinions carry a great deal of weight for me. And they shouldn't for any adult.

    And to imply that they are "journalists" is a slap in the face to every professional in that line of work.
    Umm, I've watched every TSL podcast and you are just making this up. You are not well, and you need some help, fellow. What zip code are you, I will get you an appointment tomorrow. Please get (back) on your meds.

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by LiamForeman View Post
    Umm, I've watched every TSL podcast and you are just making this up. You are not well, and you need some help, fellow. What zip code are you, I will get you an appointment tomorrow. Please get (back) on your meds.
    No it is not being made up! He did wonder how Miki would skate with lactating breasts or if Jason Brown impregnated her with his pony tail Ala Avatar.

  5. #110
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    It's called humor. Are you so oblivious that you really think someone is seriously wondering if Miki Ando will be able to skate with lactating breasts?

    Tabloid rags are useless crap like this: http://www.nationalenquirer.com/cele...ivorce-shocker

  6. #111
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    Their dry sense of humour and candour isn't for everyone, and if it's not for you- that's fair enough. Why then, do you insist on watching their videos?

    If someone like Ashley Wagner, who they have 'ragged on' about so many times have enough chill pills to still agree to an interview with her cool kept, why are you so aggravated by it? And I don't mean that in a horrible way, I just want to know why you are personally affected by TSL?

  7. #112
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    [QUOTE=LiamForeman;771633]
    Quote Originally Posted by KKonas View Post

    Yeppers. Just wait til you see an interview with Jenny, Dave, and Dick. That is magic. Even with Frank it approached magic, but get Dick on it, it will be historical. Get over ur hate, grl.
    I am a professional researcher/skating analyst/writer and certainly qualified to comment. I actually worked with Dick Button.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by bramweld View Post
    No, no, no, really, it would not be a shame. Their 15 minutes of infamy, has gone on way too long. On too many occasions I've seen them sprout innuendo and personal opinion as fact. I have no respect/tolerance for that. People work too hard for reckless people to do that. There are way too many tabloid rags around. It's time for some real integrity where the coverage of the sport is concerned.

    Their timely demise would just clear the way for a better product to come to the fore. No I repeat it would not be a shame if they were no more but a welcome relief. They can't be allowed to continue as is. No. Now can we talk about figure skating?
    Perhaps you are right but, who among us can do it? The one thing I will say in their defense is that to maintain the blog requires a tremendous amount of time and dedication. As much as I wish I could do it I just do not have that kind of time. SO, I will take the good with the bad.

    Jenny for the most part has remained professional but, every now and then she gets off the line and I can live with that. Dave, doesn't get the respect mostly because he is not a past champion but, I have met him and he dedicates a lot of research to This and That.

    The thing that has set them off is that many people are not standing up to the sochi spectacle and it has pissed them off beyond belief. Because this is their own blog and they are not working for a major network they are free to speak as they feel. It is up to us as the viewers to decide to agree with them or not. When I don't like what they say I respectfully give them feedback and hope they can improve but, I do not wish for them to end what they have started.

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    It's called humor. Are you so oblivious that you really think someone is seriously wondering if Miki Ando will be able to skate with lactating breasts?

    Tabloid rags are useless crap like this: http://www.nationalenquirer.com/cele...ivorce-shocker
    I don't know if that was for me but someone said it was a lie they said it and it wasn't a lie it was just a joke.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by LiamForeman View Post
    Also, anyone who personally attacks Dave has most likely never met him. He's one of the nicest guys you could know. He just has opinions, but believe me if he felt he was personally hurting someone he'd stop. It's just a difference in cultures I guess. On a scale of 1 to 10 for being a friend, Dave is at least a 9. Always there, compassionate. Just because he goes off on some Meryl idiocy doesn't make him evil. Meryl did sound like an idiot. And frankly I think her remarks and comments DID make her seem unlikeable. Next week with some training maybe she'll get on track to a more likeable persona. Oh well, it seems like the haterade for TSL is flowing hard today. Just stop the personal attacks. I don't know Jenny, but I do know Dave (though not well) and he is very funny and very kind and very compassionate.
    Unfortunately, Dave did not come across as nice, funny, kind and compassionate to some of us. If you want one example of journalist I personally think who had come across as compassionate and kind, was the late Randy Starkman from Canada. And I am sure Randy was loved and respected by many whom he had interviewed.

    There is a difference between stating one's opinion in a manner which conveys respect or mockery.

  11. #116
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterB View Post
    Perhaps you are right but, who among us can do it? The one thing I will say in their defense is that to maintain the blog requires a tremendous amount of time and dedication. As much as I wish I could do it I just do not have that kind of time. SO, I will take the good with the bad.

    Jenny for the most part has remained professional but, every now and then she gets off the line and I can live with that. Dave, doesn't get the respect mostly because he is not a past champion but, I have met him and he dedicates a lot of research to This and That.

    The thing that has set them off is that many people are not standing up to the sochi spectacle and it has pissed them off beyond belief. Because this is their own blog and they are not working for a major network they are free to speak as they feel. It is up to us as the viewers to decide to agree with them or not. When I don't like what they say I respectfully give them feedback and hope they can improve but, I do not wish for them to end what they have started.
    While I don't agree with the approach, I definitely admire their willingness to do this. As someone that keeps a blog professionally, I know it's a lot of work to maintain it. So I don't doubt that they've put a lot of work and effort.

    If you don't care for the snark, but like the interview approach, the Manleywoman Skatecast is great: http://www.manleywoman.com/

  12. #117
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    My guess is that Dave Lease's comments about Meryl were intemperate BECAUSE he is such a big fan of hers. Just a couple weeks ago, he was gushing to the point of breathlessness about her skating, her looks, her costumes, her programs, etc. She didn't come up with the answer he wanted on an issue that's important to him and he overreacted. I admire the fact that he is honest enough to hold his favorites to the same standards as anyone else, but mimicking her voice was tacky and calling her "unrelatable" was a mistake, and a silly, easily disprovable one at that. I agree with Dave that the Russian law is vile, but I wish he had expressed his disappointment in a more grown up way. Still, it's his right to disapprove, and frankly, I imagine he'll move on and I would bet he'll think better of his means of disapproval before long.

    Athletes who are competing in the Olympics are signing up for a sporting event, not running for political office. If they want to express their opinions on political issues, fine, but they shouldn't be required to do that. The public is awfully fickle. How often do we hear celebrities and athletes mocked for their presumption when they make political statements - or worse (ask the Dixie Chicks about that.) Yet here we have a case when athletes are being raked over the coals because they didn't get up on a soapbox. Dave and Jenny might want to ponder that paradox going forward.

    In any case, Dave and Jenny's opinions don't bother me - everybody's got one on every subject. I do think they'd be better advised not to suggest or speculate that athletes are faking injuries unless they have some pretty convincing proof in hand. That really is unprofessional and will hurt their reputations in the long run. Their comments on the Shibs and Tessa Virtue were over the line and they need to reconsider their approach on that point. That kind of speculation does happen on message boards like this one, but they aren't commenting on a message board. I hope they will rethink their approach on that subject.

    I think TSL is a lot of fun in a lot of ways. Skating fans are starved for media attention to the sport, and I do appreciate that they post videos and updates regularly - they are doing more to stimulate interest and conversation about figure skating than NBC or any major news outlet, so more power to them. If they would just exercise a little more professional restraint when appropriate, they would be doing fine.

    I sometimes think skating fans have unrealistic expectations about how skaters should be treated by the press, for the simple reason that the major sports media pays so little attention to the sport. Imagine if skating was a frequent topic on sports talk radio! TSL is a warm baby's bath compared to the treatment that say, NFL players get every day on your radio dial.

    FWIW, if Dave's friends are going to post here in his defense, fine, but I'd suggest they idle back on the defensiveness. If Dave is aggressive and uninhibited on TSL, he's going to reap some aggressive and uninhibited criticism too - it comes with the territory.

  13. #118
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    I actually don't that the majority of people who are fans of the sport enough to pay attention to blogs, chat boards and the like, have any real issues with the fact that Jenny and Dave are expressing their opinions. Even the manner in which they often do, unfortunately to a frequent enough extent, would be typically described as "catty" or "not professional", I think most people in 2013 understand that it sort of "comes with the territory" in this day of social media, blogs, etc.

    What seems to me, to have touched so many nerves, is the fact that both Jenny and Dave went beyond. They crossed a few very significant lines.

    1. They are commenting about skating that has not even taken place or been seen by anyone (i.e., the Shibs and their programs).
    2. They are making allegations which go beyond simply insulting, and are actually bordering on libelous - about people that they admit that they have never met (and at this point, probably never will) and are drawing conclusions from statements for which they have no idea of the context in which they were made.

    Given their stated mission of being like a "hub" or "resource" for skaters, their parents (huh?) and fans - they establish the expectation that they should be taken seriously. Clearly there is a big disconnect.

    Aside from the actual videos, and not just from 10/6 but also from the week before, where some of the comments about the Shibs were made, it is worth noting some of the comments posted below the videos, from people who obviously DO pay attention to TSL. A few stand out for their tone which balances both support and candor.

    [U][COLOR="#0000FF"]
    Robby A
    OCTOBER 6, 2013

    Hi guys! Always enjoy your podcasts. You both bring a lot of energy to your videos and they are for the most part really enjoyable. Just had to say, the level of hatred the two of you obviously have for the Shibutani’s – whoooee – really stands out. It is becoming amongst the things you want to be known for. Hating on the ShibSibs!

    I have no problem with snark in podcasts. Colorful opinions are entertaining. You guys are 100% entitled to sharing yours. Recent comments about them though obviously go well beyond, and we haven’t even seen them skate yet this season!

    Last week for instance you essentially called the Shibutanis out for being LIARS for their reasons for not skating at US Classic. You also claim “a lot of people” think they are undeserving of their marks.

    Dave also insinuated that money has inappropriately been involved in their making the last three world teams. That would be bribery and fraud.

    I guess I just find it jarring that your hatred for them goes beyond their skating. You guys really hate on them as people too, don’t you, and it isn’t even related to the Russian anti-gay issue?!? What gives?

    From their music announcement it sounds like they put a lot of thought into their programs. Dave said after seeing costume photos that they “look about 12 years old, I think the whole thing is a giant mistake”

    Disappointing. Would have thought you guys would wait to see the actual programs and skating.



    Eun Wander
    OCTOBER 7, 2013

    I agree with Robbie. Jenny, your reply to Robbie, while technically “correct” fell way short of addressing the obvious reality.

    I don’t think anybody who chooses to watch your videos has any issue with the fact that you have an opinion on who you prefer or think is stronger as a skater. Having different opinions is great. Having favorites and supporting them is all good. It’s just been so consistent that you guys show such obvious pleasure in bashing the Shibs. You say you “respect” them, but it is a really strange way to show it.

    You, Dave and TSL really disdain the Shibutanis, and that is “fine” you don’t have to like them as skaters or people. You’re entitled to have your opinion. But saying that “you” did not call them something when you did, just doesn’t fly. You and Dave and TSL are all linked and that I would bet that would true from a common sense and legal sense as well

    You guys always say that in skating perception is reality. It is really the same thing when you take such pleasure in creating the impression that they were not legitimately injured.

    By bringing their credibility into question, you are saying they are dishonest and that they lied. This speaks to character and is directly related to your view of them as people and who they are off ice.

    They have yet to show their programs but Jenny and Dave are making sure people perceive them as childish and their entire approach to the sport this season is a giant mistake.

    Like Robbie said, that is really really disappointing because I too enjoy some of your videos. The interviews with coaches and choreographers especially.

    It is not puzzling to me. You guys enthusiastically chose to cross the line, but when you do so with some of what I would think are some of the most decent people currently in the sport like the Shibutanis and Davis and White, you are show your true colors.

    Just don’t expect decent people to find it OK.



    James
    OCTOBER 7, 2013

    I was so disappointed to see such hateful discussion here. Dave may be a “blogger”, but Jenny should know better. These skaters have dedicated their lives to something and that alone warrants more respect than is shown here.

    Opinions on skating, programs, costumes, etc are one thing, but your blatant attack on hard-working athletes and their character is deplorable.

    Do you know these people? Who are you to say who they are and are not?

    And if you are under the impression that you speak for the masses on the topic of what is likable/relatable and what isn’t, you should know that there are many who disagree with you.

    I hope you consider the limitations of your own knowledge of these skaters, their characters and their stories before you fervently express your opinions next.

    Lastly, perhaps these skaters have the right idea… when speaking to an issue you may know little about, less really is more.

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by LiamForeman View Post
    Umm, I've watched every TSL podcast and you are just making this up. You are not well, and you need some help, fellow. What zip code are you, I will get you an appointment tomorrow. Please get (back) on your meds.
    Unfortunately, I'm unable to link to the exact podcast... I got an admin message that they were a "commercial site" not affiliated with GS.

    However, you can do what I did, which is to google "TSL Miki Ando" and you'll have absolutely no problem getting to the podcast in question.

    I'd like an apology, assuming you are man enough to admit you're wrong.

  15. #120
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraV View Post
    My guess is that Dave Lease's comments about Meryl were intemperate BECAUSE he is such a big fan of hers. Just a couple weeks ago, he was gushing to the point of breathlessness about her skating, her looks, her costumes, her programs, etc. She didn't come up with the answer he wanted on an issue that's important to him and he overreacted. I admire the fact that he is honest enough to hold his favorites to the same standards as anyone else, but mimicking her voice was tacky and calling her "unrelatable" was a mistake, and a silly, easily disprovable one at that. I agree with Dave that the Russian law is vile, but I wish he had expressed his disappointment in a more grown up way. Still, it's his right to disapprove, and frankly, I imagine he'll move on and I would bet he'll think better of his means of disapproval before long.

    Athletes who are competing in the Olympics are signing up for a sporting event, not running for political office. If they want to express their opinions on political issues, fine, but they shouldn't be required to do that. The public is awfully fickle. How often do we hear celebrities and athletes mocked for their presumption when they make political statements - or worse (ask the Dixie Chicks about that.) Yet here we have a case when athletes are being raked over the coals because they didn't get up on a soapbox. Dave and Jenny might want to ponder that paradox going forward.

    In any case, Dave and Jenny's opinions don't bother me - everybody's got one on every subject. I do think they'd be better advised not to suggest or speculate that athletes are faking injuries unless they have some pretty convincing proof in hand. That really is unprofessional and will hurt their reputations in the long run. Their comments on the Shibs and Tessa Virtue were over the line and they need to reconsider their approach on that point. That kind of speculation does happen on message boards like this one, but they aren't commenting on a message board. I hope they will rethink their approach on that subject.

    I think TSL is a lot of fun in a lot of ways. Skating fans are starved for media attention to the sport, and I do appreciate that they post videos and updates regularly - they are doing more to stimulate interest and conversation about figure skating than NBC or any major news outlet, so more power to them. If they would just exercise a little more professional restraint when appropriate, they would be doing fine.

    I sometimes think skating fans have unrealistic expectations about how skaters should be treated by the press, for the simple reason that the major sports media pays so little attention to the sport. Imagine if skating was a frequent topic on sports talk radio! TSL is a warm baby's bath compared to the treatment that say, NFL players get every day on your radio dial.

    FWIW, if Dave's friends are going to post here in his defense, fine, but I'd suggest they idle back on the defensiveness. If Dave is aggressive and uninhibited on TSL, he's going to reap some aggressive and uninhibited criticism too - it comes with the territory.
    I couldn't have said it better myself. I actually do think they offer a lot to the discussion, but some of the extremely catty/libelous comments have really soured things for me.

    RE: Sports talk radio: I don't know how to best explain this nuance, but I find that sports talk radio folks don't seem so personal when joshing NFL players or trash talking them. They are so OTT with some of their descriptions that you know it's satire not a personal attack.

    I really felt that Dave's comments regarding Meryl did seem like a personal attack because of the context it was said (and if the posts about Dave being hurt by Meryl's comments are true, then it did seem like a jerky reaction to her response regarding the Russian law). I think if TSL were joking around about how Meryl sounded like a Disney princess or something (I mean how many times have we mentioned this on these boards?!), that's a whole other thing, as I said, satire.

    ETA: I think the other thing is the frequency and general context they talk about skaters. Are the Shibutanis, for instance, so useless as Ice Dancers that you can't have a single positive segment about them? What about their creative and fun YouTube videos?

    If TSL was your only source on figure skating, the only thing you would know about the Shibs is that they're "childish-looking skaters" who bribe their way to the U.S. Nationals podium (and the Worlds team.)


    .

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