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Thread: Virtue and Moir's Finlandia levels?

  1. #1
    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
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    Virtue and Moir's Finlandia levels?

    Can anyone (Doris?) try to understand and explain me the reasons that caused Tessa and Scott to receive such low levels in Finlandia? Especially the level2 spin and the level1 RoLi... Thank you in advance!

  2. #2
    Huge Scott Moir Fan Macassar88's Avatar
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    I'm no specialist, but the Finlandia judges tend to always be stricter. I'm interested in their justifications though.

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    OK, here's my take on the lift.

    Here's the lift. It's the second last lift in the program, right before their diagonal step sequence.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9oxk...ilpage#t=3m18s


    What they are going for is a change of position rotational lift from a difficult/creative entry. Clearly Tessa changes position. At the time Scott starts rotating, Tessa is already on his shoulders, and then she changes to a position at his chest level. Clearly that flip in is a difficult entry. However, no credit is given for the entry if they don't make the requirements for Level 3, so the thing to watch when reviewing this lift is what Scott does.

    The reason that the lift was reviewed is that Scott clearly stops rotating for a short time during the lift. The following question in the Tech Manual deals with the situation:


    Question: What happens if the lifting partner stops continuous rotation during a Rotational Lift or a direction of a Reverse Rotational Lift (this means the lifting partner rotates for a while, stops rotation, and then continues to rotate some more)?

    Answer: As long as the lifting partner is traveling and not on the spot, the rotations can continue to be counted. However, the feature for the lifted partner is affected in the following way:  if the lifted partner is in a Difficult Pose when the rotation stops, the Level is reduced by one,
     if the lifted partner is moving though a Change of Pose when the rotation stops, the feature is not considered for Level.

    Comment: If the lifting partner stops traveling, the rotations and features are not considered for Level from that point on.
    So I believe the problem was that Scott stopped rotating while Tessa was going through the change of pose. If she doesn't get credit for a change of pose, the level falls all the way back to Level 1.

    Here's the Levels, edited so that you see only the parts that apply to them.


    Level 1
    OPTION 1
    Lifted partner is held off the ice through at least 3 rotations
    AND
    Lifting partner moves through at least 3 rotations


    Level 2
    OPTION 1
    Lifted partner ... moves through a Change of Pose
    AND
    Lifting partner moves through at least 4 rotations
    So I believe that's how the panel saw it.

    Here's a link to the point in the FD so you can look at it again to see what you think.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9oxk...ilpage#t=3m18s
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 10-10-2013 at 04:22 AM.

  4. #4
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Level 2 Combination Spin

    Here's the spin
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9oxk...ailpage#t=150s

    They appear to be kind of unsteady in the pair sit spin part of the combination, which is the last part of the spin. I believe this is what got the spin reviewed.

    What they had planned was a level 4 combination spin.
    They plan rotating in a pair simple camel position; on the same leg changing to an upright position with Tessa in a full layback, and Scott simply upright, then separating and changing the leg they are standing on (makes it a combination spin) and both spinning in a sit position with a difficult variation. Scott's difficult variation is "Free leg bent or straight directed forward with thigh of skating leg at least parallel to the ice;" Tessa's difficult sit variation is "Free leg bent or straight directed backward with thigh of skating leg at least parallel to the ice" while Scott is holding her free leg foot.

    I believe Scott gets credit for his simple camel, because he does at least 2 revolutions in the position and he has his leg is a horizontal line or higher. I believe Tessa gets credit for her layback. Although it takes her a while to get into the established position (where her "the spine is arched from the waist to the upper back," I think there are at least 2 revolutions after she gets there. The problem comes with the sit positions for both of them.

    After Scott gets his leg straight out, he wobbles a bit and the leg is no longer horizontal to the ice. Tessa has slight wobbles because Scott is holding her foot, which throws her off a tiny bit

    Rotations in Difficult Variation shall be taken into consideration for the purpose of Level when
    performed continuously in a fully established position
    I think they do not get credit for Scott's sit position. The question for me is whether Scott's wobble causes enough of a problem with Tessa so that she also loses credit for a "fully established position" - I believe the panel did not give them the credit.

    This means they fulfilled requirements for Level 2 that they attempted:

    2 different Basic Positions (1 by one partner and 1 by the other partner): each Difficult Variation for at least 2
    rotations
    but didn't meet requirements for Level 3

    OPTION 1
    ...
    3 different Difficult Variations from 3 different Basic Positions (3 by same partner or 2 by one partner and 1 by the other partner): each Difficult Variation for at least 2 rotations.
    I didn't see any putting of a foot down or stoppage of rotation that should have caused them to lose a level otherwise.

    Here's the spin again so you can check this out for yourself
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9oxk...ailpage#t=150s

  5. #5
    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
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    Thank you SO MUCH Doris!! This kind of analysis is exactly what I was looking for!

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    Make that a double thank-you. I'm still learning the intricacies of dance scoring and dissections of elements by knowledgeable people like dorispulaski are my main educational tool! :-))

  7. #7
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    By the way, if Scott's instability in the sit spin was due to his free leg foot hitting the ice, that would have had the same result, level 2 because it would have invalidated both Tessa & Scott's sit spins. I didn't see it, but it could have been.

  8. #8
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Doris, does dance have the same requirement in the spin as singles/pairs where a "change of center" (aka a "rock off" but re-establisment of the spin like Nagasu did in the SP at Nationals last year on her change combination spin) negates all features beyond it? If he was unstable in the sit position, that could cause it if the rule is the same.

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    Nice work Doris. But oh my V and M are finished; I do't see how they can compete against Davis and White. It might be a coronation for D and W. Way too man y erros and problems; the freeskate is like a 2010 reject. Not good.

  10. #10
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Of course, they can compete with D&W. It is not unusual for V&M to start the season with a number of small errors that lose them tech points. The last time I remember them doing Finlandia they got Level 2 for a lift and had to replace it (that was their 2012 season, and they won the Worlds in Nice). Last year at Skate Canada, they almost lost the SD to Cappellini & LaNotte because they got crap levels in the Yankee Polka. By 4CC's, they beat D&W in the SD. However, they've got to stop having twizzle problems. It did them in last year in the SD at Worlds, and didn't help them here at Finlandia.

  11. #11
    Outdated Old Dinosaur
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    Doris, your analysis is a prime example of why I value my participation on this board.

    Factual, unbiased, and footnoted.

    Thank you for this, and for all you provide for us.

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    Agreed twizzles are key but they aren't getting the pcs they used to have the advantage over D and W either and imho they still are better but not according to the judges. D and W might have more speed in general (we are talking normally) but interpretation and choreographically wise I think the complexity and sophistication of V and M deserves some more credit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    OK, here's my take on the lift.

    Here's the lift. It's the second last lift in the program, right before their diagonal step sequence.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9oxk...ilpage#t=3m18s


    What they are going for is a change of position rotational lift from a difficult/creative entry. Clearly Tessa changes position. At the time Scott starts rotating, Tessa is already on his shoulders, and then she changes to a position at his chest level. Clearly that flip in is a difficult entry. However, no credit is given for the entry if they don't make the requirements for Level 3, so the thing to watch when reviewing this lift is what Scott does.

    The reason that the lift was reviewed is that Scott clearly stops rotating for a short time during the lift. The following question in the Tech Manual deals with the situation:




    So I believe the problem was that Scott stopped rotating while Tessa was going through the change of pose. If she doesn't get credit for a change of pose, the level falls all the way back to Level 1.

    Here's the Levels, edited so that you see only the parts that apply to them.




    So I believe that's how the panel saw it.

    Here's a link to the point in the FD so you can look at it again to see what you think.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9oxk...ilpage#t=3m18s
    You are correct.

  14. #14
    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KKonas View Post
    You are correct.
    Doris is always correct

  15. #15
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    This is just one competition and to me it means nothing towards the Olympics. The competition is still very close and who knows what the judges will like more.

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