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Thread: Virtue and Moir's Finlandia levels?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPack View Post
    The way I see it, Maurizio is really helping V&M. He can let Y&M slide because they won't be medal contenders in Sochi. Maurizio is picking on V&M hard, so that they know what to improve on. When it comes to competing with D&W, every single little 1/10th of a point counts.
    You do know that Maurizio also coaches D/W too, right?

  2. #32
    Custom Title BlackPack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt K View Post
    You do know that Maurizio also coaches D/W too, right?
    More of a consultant who is hired to get a specific task accomplished, a bit more mercenary. A bit different than an actual coach who is a lifelong teacher and supporter and is supposed to be loyal to the skaters in question.

  3. #33
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    That's a fair description. What one hopes with a hired tech specialist consultant is that he or she will point out every little possible flaw so that it can be fixed.

  4. #34
    Custom Title spikydurian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsisjiejie View Post
    Well no actually it doesn't. Boo to you for insinuating bias and from the lowest ranking member of the Tech Panel. Finlandia panels are usually strict to the letter of the regulations. Have you considered that the Finlandia panel called it strictly but correctly, and maybe the judging at the JGP Tallinn dance competition was more lax? A look at the tech panel there might be interesting.
    It's normal to insinuate bias on the judges. Isn't it common to scream 'wuzrobbed' from fans? Even Phil Hersh does it.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPack View Post
    More of a consultant who is hired to get a specific task accomplished, a bit more mercenary. A bit different than an actual coach who is a lifelong teacher and supporter and is supposed to be loyal to the skaters in question.
    Call it what you may. The point is that Maurizio helps both D/W and V/M get their levels, not just V/M. Just wanted to clear up any potential misconceptions some fans may have who are reading this.

  6. #36
    Custom Title BlackPack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt K View Post
    Call it what you may. The point is that Maurizio helps both D/W and V/M get their levels, not just V/M. Just wanted to clear up any potential misconceptions some fans may have who are reading this.
    Well, it's an important distinction. Your coach is supposed to be your biggest fan/supporter/teacher, while a consultant helps you improve a certain skill and not much more. My point is that he is helping whoever do their best by dissecting every little flaw.

    Actually, you might want to clear things up some more. Were you saying that Maurizio was supporting D&W by penalizing V&M? You had a problem with what I said, which was really not a very original point - your critics are your best motivators; Maurizio et al helped them see what they can improve to beat D&W. Then you handwaved that I made a distinction between consultant and coach.

  7. #37
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    The simplest answer is sometimes the best one:

    The tech panel correctly and ethically assigned the appropriate levels to the lift and the spin that were performed on that night.

    I believe Doris has already provided a plausible breakdown of where levels were lost, and I haven't seen anyone dispute her analysis with alternate technical explanations. My understanding is that V/M have already acknowledged that the levels were fairly assigned.

    I'm not sure how we went from there to Maurizio was "helping" or "hurting."

    Edit: I'm now not certain the italicized portion is true... I may have misread other information... but leaving it in for clarification/discussion.

  8. #38
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
    T

    I'm not sure how we went from there to Maurizio was "helping" or "hurting."
    FSGMT wondered why a couple at this last weekend's JGP , who made a similar error on a rotational lift, were not called on the error. veravina implied that this occurred because the JGP panel was fair, but the Finlandia panel had an Assistant Tech Specialist who was an American (i.e., V&M were unfairly penalized.)

    I offered the alternative suggestion that the Tech Specialist at the JGP event (who is the person primarily responsible for calls on a Tech Panel) was Maurizio Margaglio, and that perhaps Maurizio was not as eagle-eyed a tech guy as the Tech Specialist who was on both the Finlandia and Salt Lake panels, György Elek.

    The thread drift went from there.

  9. #39
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    Thank you. I had gotten confused.

    But György Elek doesn't sound like a name of an American (perhaps he is, though. Melting Pot and all that...). Assuming he's not... where did the veiled accusations of pro-American/anti-Canadian bias come from? I suppose I'm hopelessly lost.

    Edit: Oh, wait. Did the bias discussion come up because the Assistant was American?

    To point out how lost I am... I had thought from the discussion that Maurizio was the tech specialist at Finlandia...

  10. #40
    Celebrating the Excellence of #VirtueMoir golden411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPack View Post
    The way I see it, Maurizio is really helping V&M. He can let Y&M slide because they won't be medal contenders in Sochi. Maurizio is picking on V&M hard, so that they know what to improve on. When it comes to competing with D&W, every single little 1/10th of a point counts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt K View Post
    You do know that Maurizio also coaches D/W too, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPack View Post
    Well, it's an important distinction. Your coach is supposed to be your biggest fan/supporter/teacher, while a consultant helps you improve a certain skill and not much more. My point is that he is helping whoever do their best by dissecting every little flaw.

    Actually, you might want to clear things up some more. Were you saying that Maurizio was supporting D&W by penalizing V&M? You had a problem with what I said, which was really not a very original point - your critics are your best motivators; Maurizio et al helped them see what they can improve to beat D&W. Then you handwaved that I made a distinction between consultant and coach.
    BlackPack, I believe that you have misunderstood Matt K's point. As far as I can tell, he is not disagreeing with your distinction btwn coach and consultant (and neither am I).

    To me, Matt K's separate point (which by no means negates yours) is that Margaglio works with both Davis/White and Virtue/Moir (as well as other members of Team Canton) -- and is supporting both D/W and V/M with whatever expertise that he offers.

    So not only is Margaglio helping V/M earn every tenth of a point that they can (with the ultimate goal of outscoring D/W) -- but also Margaglio is helping D/W earn every tenth that they can (with the ultimate goal of outscoring V/M).

  11. #41
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
    The simplest answer is sometimes the best one:

    The tech panel correctly and ethically assigned the appropriate levels to the lift and the spin that were performed on that night.

    I believe Doris has already provided a plausible breakdown of where levels were lost, and I haven't seen anyone dispute her analysis with alternate technical explanations. My understanding is that V/M have already acknowledged that the levels were fairly assigned.

    I'm not sure how we went from there to Maurizio was "helping" or "hurting."

    Edit: I'm now not certain the italicized portion is true... I may have misread other information... but leaving it in for clarification/discussion.
    Nope. Maurizio was only at Finlandia as one of the coaches of V&M and of Finnish teams. But he is a tech specialist, so if he felt the the downgrades V&M were given were unfounded, he could have helped Marina protest the results.
    Presumably, since silence is assent, and since V&M did not challenge the results, they were OK with them. Since they won the competition by many points, I doubt that they would take the trouble, for that matter, and might be glad to know that they had some issues.

    Checking whether you have level issues is one of the reasons that elite level teams go to B level competitions...that and the ISU points you get from competing there.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by golden411 View Post
    BlackPack, I believe that you have misunderstood Matt K's point. As far as I can tell, he is not disagreeing with your distinction btwn coach and consultant (and neither am I).

    To me, Matt K's separate point (which by no means negates yours) is that Margaglio works with both Davis/White and Virtue/Moir (as well as other members of Team Canton) -- and is supporting both D/W and V/M with whatever expertise that he offers.

    So not only is Margaglio helping V/M earn every tenth of a point that they can (with the ultimate goal of outscoring D/W) -- but also Margaglio is helping D/W earn every tenth that they can (with the ultimate goal of outscoring V/M).
    Exactly!! That is my point.

    Thank you!

  13. #43
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    Gyorgy Elek formerly skated for Hungary in ice dance with Zsuzsanna NAGY.
    The other Tech specialist on the JGP team was Doreen HOPPE from Great Britain.
    The Tech Controller was Katalin ALPERN (ISR).

    The only interesting thing here is that Alpern was originally from Hungary, and Doreen Hoppe's husband Gary used to judge for Israel, so there is a HUN-ISR-GBR connection among the tech panel.

  14. #44
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    V/M were the ones to struggle the most with levels after Igor left. Them actually and the Shibs. Really and truly IMHO, Marina and Igor breaking up really hurt them. I get the feeling that it is a great challenge for them to merge the technical and the artistic just because of how naturally gifted they are as performers and dancers. They needed therefore that sharp eye to keep them on track, Igor's. That being said they just have to work harder and or smarter to get the levels up. It's a pity that they don't seem to have the option of having him as a consultant, even though Marina is their main coach at the moment. Seems silly to me to let personal issues between to grown people (Igor and Marina) get in the way of them possibly vying for a record tying second Olympic gold medal in ice dance. Oh well

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    The only interesting thing here is that Alpern was originally from Hungary, and Doreen Hoppe's husband Gary used to judge for Israel, so there is a HUN-ISR-GBR connection among the tech panel.
    Ah-ha!!! I just KNEW there was a conspiracy!

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