Virtue and Moir's Finlandia levels? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Virtue and Moir's Finlandia levels?

FSGMT

Record Breaker
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Sep 10, 2012
But, for example, please look at the RoLi that Y/M performed yesterday in the SD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtWkWqRjkAI
For what I can see, he clearly stops rotating while she's changing position, and the lift received level4... What's the difference? A generous technical panel while the panel in Finlandia was very strict?
 

bigsisjiejie

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Nov 22, 2009
The assistant technical specialist at Finlandia was American. Does that help?

Well no actually it doesn't. Boo to you for insinuating bias and from the lowest ranking member of the Tech Panel. Finlandia panels are usually strict to the letter of the regulations. Have you considered that the Finlandia panel called it strictly but correctly, and maybe the judging at the JGP Tallinn dance competition was more lax? A look at the tech panel there might be interesting.
 

dorispulaski

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Okay, let's look at yesterday's SD performance for Y&M. Here's the exact lift in question:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=FtWkWqRjkAI#t=90

The technical controller at this event was the same Maurizio Margaglio who is the house technical specialist for Virtue & Moir, and who said in the KnC at Finlandia, you guys did your job, but we did not. Since Igor left, the Canton dancers have not been as up on tech levels as the Novi rink skaters of Shpilband.

This could be part of the reason. Maurizio may not have the real eagle eye.

The usual method of tech panel crookedness is not calling too tightly, because skaters are allowed to challenge any incorrect calls at the event.

The better method is being too loose with your favored skaters, because their competitors cannot challenge the marks of the favored couple.

BTW, the assistant tech specialist can only highlight a skill for review, especially with something like a lift. The technical specialist is the person who calls all the skills where both skaters are doing the same thing, like lifts and spins. The assistant can disagree, and then the controller casts the deciding vote. So one assistant tech specialist is not the deciding factor in any call, and if the call was wrong, V&M could have challenged it.
 
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Skater Boy

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Feb 24, 2012
Hmm, I am not sure it is so great to have judges or experts who competed against some of the competitors - Even the appearance of bias is not good or could be bias. Hasn't Maurizio competed against some of the remaining dancers?
 

KKonas

Medalist
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Okay, let's look at yesterday's SD performance for Y&M. Here's the exact lift in question:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=FtWkWqRjkAI#t=90

The technical controller at this event was the same Maurizio Margaglio who is the house technical specialist for Virtue & Moir, and who said in the KnC at Finlandia, you guys did your job, but we did not. Since Igor left, the Canton dancers have not been as up on tech levels as the Novi rink skaters of Shpilband.

This could be part of the reason. Maurizio may not have the real eagle eye.

The usual method of tech panel crookedness is not calling too tightly, because skaters are allowed to challenge any incorrect calls at the event.

The better method is being too loose with your favored skaters, because their competitors cannot challenge the marks of the favored couple.

BTW, the assistant tech specialist can only highlight a skill for review, especially with something like a lift. The technical specialist is the person who calls all the skills where both skaters are doing the same thing, like lifts and spins. The assistant can disagree, and then the controller casts the deciding vote. So one assistant tech specialist is not the deciding factor in any call, and if the call was wrong, V&M could have challenged it.

True. However, in Pairs and Ice Dance, the tech specialists split who watches whom. One will take the man, the other the woman. So, in effect, both can highlight a skill for review.
 

dorispulaski

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Certainly, he has competed against Pechalat & Bourzat. Both teams were at the 2006 Olympics.

What I find more questionable is when Marina Zueva's school has a team in an event or when Finnish dancers are competing (Maurizio works with the Finnish dancers), should Maurizio be on the tech panel? How about when teams they compete against nationally from different schools are in the event? Should he be on the panel? How about Sergei Ponomarenko being on the panel when Chock & Bates and Igor's other students are skating?
 

BlackPack

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Mar 20, 2013
The technical controller at this event was the same Maurizio Margaglio who is the house technical specialist for Virtue & Moir, and who said in the KnC at Finlandia, you guys did your job, but we did not. Since Igor left, the Canton dancers have not been as up on tech levels as the Novi rink skaters of Shpilband.

This could be part of the reason. Maurizio may not have the real eagle eye.

As always, your knowledge impressive and profound, Doris, but I'm not quite clear on what you are saying. Is Maurizio saying that V&M's levels aren't as good as when Igor was there or that Maurizio isn't observant enough?
 

dorispulaski

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Here at JGP Riga, Maurizio, as technical specialist, did not call Yanovskaia & Mozgoz for Mozgov stopping during a change of position in a change of position lift, which would have given Y&M a level 1 for the rotational lift (and, of course, the other 2 panel members didn't call it either). Granted the stop was not quite as easy to see as Scott's stop at Finlandia, but there was a stop in rotation.

There are 3 possibilities:
Maurizio may be knowledgeable, but does not have the "eagle eye" to see flaws with 100% detection.
Maurizio may not be enough knowledgeable.
Maurizio is cheating here.

Since Maurizio has no reason to cheat at a JGP, and since he has been a tech specialist a long time, I am sure he knows the rules. Consequently, my guess is that he is not an eagle eyed guy.

And so I wonder, what other consequences do his difficulties have?

Since Igor left Canton, both V&M and D&W have not been getting levels that I would expect for them at their first showing of programs.

Perhaps, I think, it is not surprising that he is not noticing the more difficult to see flaws in V&M's and D&W's skating, particularly in pattern dances. As a result, a top-notch team like V&M which should be at least able to get level 3 for both Finnstep segments got level 2, because they have not been taught the key points well enough (CD's judged under the system in place when V&M and D&W last competed the Finnstep in 2010 was really pretty much like 6.0.

It's just a conjecture. And Maurizio wear glasses, not contacts, which makes me wonder how good his peripheral vision is...
 

BlackPack

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The way I see it, Maurizio is really helping V&M. He can let Y&M slide because they won't be medal contenders in Sochi. Maurizio is picking on V&M hard, so that they know what to improve on. When it comes to competing with D&W, every single little 1/10th of a point counts.
 

Matt K

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Oct 3, 2013
The way I see it, Maurizio is really helping V&M. He can let Y&M slide because they won't be medal contenders in Sochi. Maurizio is picking on V&M hard, so that they know what to improve on. When it comes to competing with D&W, every single little 1/10th of a point counts.

You do know that Maurizio also coaches D/W too, right?
 

BlackPack

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You do know that Maurizio also coaches D/W too, right?

More of a consultant who is hired to get a specific task accomplished, a bit more mercenary. A bit different than an actual coach who is a lifelong teacher and supporter and is supposed to be loyal to the skaters in question.
 

dorispulaski

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That's a fair description. What one hopes with a hired tech specialist consultant is that he or she will point out every little possible flaw so that it can be fixed.
 

spikydurian

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Jan 15, 2012
Well no actually it doesn't. Boo to you for insinuating bias and from the lowest ranking member of the Tech Panel. Finlandia panels are usually strict to the letter of the regulations. Have you considered that the Finlandia panel called it strictly but correctly, and maybe the judging at the JGP Tallinn dance competition was more lax? A look at the tech panel there might be interesting.
It's normal to insinuate bias on the judges. Isn't it common to scream 'wuzrobbed' from fans? Even Phil Hersh does it. ;)
 

Matt K

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More of a consultant who is hired to get a specific task accomplished, a bit more mercenary. A bit different than an actual coach who is a lifelong teacher and supporter and is supposed to be loyal to the skaters in question.

Call it what you may. The point is that Maurizio helps both D/W and V/M get their levels, not just V/M. Just wanted to clear up any potential misconceptions some fans may have who are reading this.
 

BlackPack

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Call it what you may. The point is that Maurizio helps both D/W and V/M get their levels, not just V/M. Just wanted to clear up any potential misconceptions some fans may have who are reading this.

Well, it's an important distinction. Your coach is supposed to be your biggest fan/supporter/teacher, while a consultant helps you improve a certain skill and not much more. My point is that he is helping whoever do their best by dissecting every little flaw.

Actually, you might want to clear things up some more. Were you saying that Maurizio was supporting D&W by penalizing V&M? You had a problem with what I said, which was really not a very original point - your critics are your best motivators; Maurizio et al helped them see what they can improve to beat D&W. Then you handwaved that I made a distinction between consultant and coach.
 

TontoK

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The simplest answer is sometimes the best one:

The tech panel correctly and ethically assigned the appropriate levels to the lift and the spin that were performed on that night.

I believe Doris has already provided a plausible breakdown of where levels were lost, and I haven't seen anyone dispute her analysis with alternate technical explanations. My understanding is that V/M have already acknowledged that the levels were fairly assigned.

I'm not sure how we went from there to Maurizio was "helping" or "hurting."

Edit: I'm now not certain the italicized portion is true... I may have misread other information... but leaving it in for clarification/discussion.
 

dorispulaski

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T

I'm not sure how we went from there to Maurizio was "helping" or "hurting."

FSGMT wondered why a couple at this last weekend's JGP , who made a similar error on a rotational lift, were not called on the error. veravina implied that this occurred because the JGP panel was fair, but the Finlandia panel had an Assistant Tech Specialist who was an American (i.e., V&M were unfairly penalized.)

I offered the alternative suggestion that the Tech Specialist at the JGP event (who is the person primarily responsible for calls on a Tech Panel) was Maurizio Margaglio, and that perhaps Maurizio was not as eagle-eyed a tech guy as the Tech Specialist who was on both the Finlandia and Salt Lake panels, György Elek.

The thread drift went from there.
 

TontoK

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Thank you. I had gotten confused.

But György Elek doesn't sound like a name of an American (perhaps he is, though. Melting Pot and all that...). Assuming he's not... where did the veiled accusations of pro-American/anti-Canadian bias come from? I suppose I'm hopelessly lost.

Edit: Oh, wait. Did the bias discussion come up because the Assistant was American?

To point out how lost I am... I had thought from the discussion that Maurizio was the tech specialist at Finlandia...
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
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Feb 27, 2012
The way I see it, Maurizio is really helping V&M. He can let Y&M slide because they won't be medal contenders in Sochi. Maurizio is picking on V&M hard, so that they know what to improve on. When it comes to competing with D&W, every single little 1/10th of a point counts.

You do know that Maurizio also coaches D/W too, right?

Well, it's an important distinction. Your coach is supposed to be your biggest fan/supporter/teacher, while a consultant helps you improve a certain skill and not much more. My point is that he is helping whoever do their best by dissecting every little flaw.

Actually, you might want to clear things up some more. Were you saying that Maurizio was supporting D&W by penalizing V&M? You had a problem with what I said, which was really not a very original point - your critics are your best motivators; Maurizio et al helped them see what they can improve to beat D&W. Then you handwaved that I made a distinction between consultant and coach.

BlackPack, I believe that you have misunderstood Matt K's point. As far as I can tell, he is not disagreeing with your distinction btwn coach and consultant (and neither am I).

To me, Matt K's separate point (which by no means negates yours) is that Margaglio works with both Davis/White and Virtue/Moir (as well as other members of Team Canton) -- and is supporting both D/W and V/M with whatever expertise that he offers.

So not only is Margaglio helping V/M earn every tenth of a point that they can (with the ultimate goal of outscoring D/W) -- but also Margaglio is helping D/W earn every tenth that they can (with the ultimate goal of outscoring V/M).
 
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