Virtue and Moir's Finlandia levels?

Can anyone (Doris?) try to understand and explain me the reasons that caused Tessa and Scott to receive such low levels in Finlandia? Especially the level2 spin and the level1 RoLi... Thank you in advance!

I'm no specialist, but the Finlandia judges tend to always be stricter. I'm interested in their justifications though.

OK, here's my take on the lift.

Here's the lift. It's the second last lift in the program, right before their diagonal step sequence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9oxkHhYJ_U&feature=player_detailpage#t=3m18s


What they are going for is a change of position rotational lift from a difficult/creative entry. Clearly Tessa changes position. At the time Scott starts rotating, Tessa is already on his shoulders, and then she changes to a position at his chest level. Clearly that flip in is a difficult entry. However, no credit is given for the entry if they don't make the requirements for Level 3, so the thing to watch when reviewing this lift is what Scott does.

The reason that the lift was reviewed is that Scott clearly stops rotating for a short time during the lift. The following question in the Tech Manual deals with the situation:

Question: What happens if the lifting partner stops continuous rotation during a Rotational Lift or a direction of a Reverse Rotational Lift (this means the lifting partner rotates for a while, stops rotation, and then continues to rotate some more)?

Answer: As long as the lifting partner is traveling and not on the spot, the rotations can continue to be counted. However, the feature for the lifted partner is affected in the following way:
if the lifted partner is in a Difficult Pose when the rotation stops, the Level is reduced by one,

if the lifted partner is moving though a Change of Pose when the rotation stops, the feature is not considered for Level.

Comment: If the lifting partner stops traveling, the rotations and features are not considered for Level from that point on.

Click to expand...

So I believe the problem was that Scott stopped rotating while Tessa was going through the change of pose. If she doesn't get credit for a change of pose, the level falls all the way back to Level 1.

Here's the Levels, edited so that you see only the parts that apply to them.

Level 1
OPTION 1
Lifted partner is held off the ice through at least 3 rotations
AND
Lifting partner moves through at least 3 rotations


Level 2
OPTION 1
Lifted partner ... moves through a Change of Pose
AND
Lifting partner moves through at least 4 rotations

Click to expand...

So I believe that's how the panel saw it.

Here's a link to the point in the FD so you can look at it again to see what you think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9oxkHhYJ_U&feature=player_detailpage#t=3m18s

Level 2 Combination Spin

Here's the spin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9oxkHhYJ_U&feature=player_detailpage#t=150s

They appear to be kind of unsteady in the pair sit spin part of the combination, which is the last part of the spin. I believe this is what got the spin reviewed.

What they had planned was a level 4 combination spin.
They plan rotating in a pair simple camel position; on the same leg changing to an upright position with Tessa in a full layback, and Scott simply upright, then separating and changing the leg they are standing on (makes it a combination spin) and both spinning in a sit position with a difficult variation. Scott's difficult variation is "Free leg bent or straight directed forward with thigh of skating leg at least parallel to the ice;" Tessa's difficult sit variation is "Free leg bent or straight directed backward with thigh of skating leg at least parallel to the ice" while Scott is holding her free leg foot.

I believe Scott gets credit for his simple camel, because he does at least 2 revolutions in the position and he has his leg is a horizontal line or higher. I believe Tessa gets credit for her layback. Although it takes her a while to get into the established position (where her "the spine is arched from the waist to the upper back," I think there are at least 2 revolutions after she gets there. The problem comes with the sit positions for both of them.

After Scott gets his leg straight out, he wobbles a bit and the leg is no longer horizontal to the ice. Tessa has slight wobbles because Scott is holding her foot, which throws her off a tiny bit

Rotations in Difficult Variation shall be taken into consideration for the purpose of Level when
performed continuously in a fully established position

Click to expand...

I think they do not get credit for Scott's sit position. The question for me is whether Scott's wobble causes enough of a problem with Tessa so that she also loses credit for a "fully established position" - I believe the panel did not give them the credit.

This means they fulfilled requirements for Level 2 that they attempted:

2 different Basic Positions (1 by one partner and 1 by the other partner): each Difficult Variation for at least 2
rotations

Click to expand...

but didn't meet requirements for Level 3

OPTION 1
...
3 different Difficult Variations from 3 different Basic Positions (3 by same partner or 2 by one partner and 1 by the other partner): each Difficult Variation for at least 2 rotations.

Click to expand...

I didn't see any putting of a foot down or stoppage of rotation that should have caused them to lose a level otherwise.

Here's the spin again so you can check this out for yourself
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9oxkHhYJ_U&feature=player_detailpage#t=150s

Thank you SO MUCH Doris!! This kind of analysis is exactly what I was looking for! :yes:

Make that a double thank-you. I'm still learning the intricacies of dance scoring and dissections of elements by knowledgeable people like dorispulaski are my main educational tool! )

By the way, if Scott's instability in the sit spin was due to his free leg foot hitting the ice, that would have had the same result, level 2 because it would have invalidated both Tessa & Scott's sit spins. I didn't see it, but it could have been.

Doris, does dance have the same requirement in the spin as singles/pairs where a "change of center" (aka a "rock off" but re-establisment of the spin like Nagasu did in the SP at Nationals last year on her change combination spin) negates all features beyond it? If he was unstable in the sit position, that could cause it if the rule is the same.

Nice work Doris. But oh my V and M are finished; I do't see how they can compete against Davis and White. It might be a coronation for D and W. Way too man y erros and problems; the freeskate is like a 2010 reject. Not good.

Of course, they can compete with D&W. It is not unusual for V&M to start the season with a number of small errors that lose them tech points. The last time I remember them doing Finlandia they got Level 2 for a lift and had to replace it (that was their 2012 season, and they won the Worlds in Nice). Last year at Skate Canada, they almost lost the SD to Cappellini & LaNotte because they got crap levels in the Yankee Polka. By 4CC's, they beat D&W in the SD. However, they've got to stop having twizzle problems. It did them in last year in the SD at Worlds, and didn't help them here at Finlandia.

Doris, your analysis is a prime example of why I value my participation on this board.

Factual, unbiased, and footnoted.

Thank you for this, and for all you provide for us.

Agreed twizzles are key but they aren't getting the pcs they used to have the advantage over D and W either and imho they still are better but not according to the judges. D and W might have more speed in general (we are talking normally) but interpretation and choreographically wise I think the complexity and sophistication of V and M deserves some more credit.

dorispulaski said:

OK, here's my take on the lift.

Here's the lift. It's the second last lift in the program, right before their diagonal step sequence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9oxkHhYJ_U&feature=player_detailpage#t=3m18s


What they are going for is a change of position rotational lift from a difficult/creative entry. Clearly Tessa changes position. At the time Scott starts rotating, Tessa is already on his shoulders, and then she changes to a position at his chest level. Clearly that flip in is a difficult entry. However, no credit is given for the entry if they don't make the requirements for Level 3, so the thing to watch when reviewing this lift is what Scott does.

The reason that the lift was reviewed is that Scott clearly stops rotating for a short time during the lift. The following question in the Tech Manual deals with the situation:




So I believe the problem was that Scott stopped rotating while Tessa was going through the change of pose. If she doesn't get credit for a change of pose, the level falls all the way back to Level 1.

Here's the Levels, edited so that you see only the parts that apply to them.




So I believe that's how the panel saw it.

Here's a link to the point in the FD so you can look at it again to see what you think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9oxkHhYJ_U&feature=player_detailpage#t=3m18s

Click to expand...

You are correct.

KKonas said:

You are correct.

Click to expand...

Doris is always correct

This is just one competition and to me it means nothing towards the Olympics. The competition is still very close and who knows what the judges will like more.

About the lift: when Scott stopped rotating, the technical panel automatically didn't consider the difficult entry and the change of position as level features anymore, and considered only the last part of the lift in order to assign the level, and there wasn't any level feature anymore to consider, so the lift reamained a level-1... Right? (I really like to understand how the technical panel works)

lavender said:

This is just one competition and to me it means nothing towards the Olympics. The competition is still very close and who knows what the judges will like more.

Click to expand...

I totally agree!

FSGMT said:

About the lift: when Scott stopped rotating, the technical panel automatically didn't consider the difficult entry and the change of position as level features anymore, and considered only the last part of the lift in order to assign the level, and there wasn't any level feature anymore to consider, so the lift reamained a level-1... Right? (I really like to understand how the technical panel works)

Click to expand...

There's 3 basically different strategies for getting a level of more than One on a rotational lif. Option 2 involves a one handed/one armed lift, which wasn't what Tessa & Scott were doing.

There are two ways other than that. One way is for the lifted partner to hit an IJS approved difficult pose and for both partners to make the requisite number of revolutions to get the level 2. The other way requires a change of pose by the lifted partner. At least 2 poses must be struck, both distinct enough that a photograph of each would be distinctly different. Then both partners must make enough revolutions to qualify for level 2, but additionally:

in Rotational Lifts, the movement through the Change of Pose occurs during rotations of
both lifting and lifted partners.

Click to expand...

This requirement was clarified by the question I quoted, that says, yes, if the lifting partner stops rotating during the change of pose, no credit for a change of pose can be given. So you can't get Level 2 without a Change of Pose, if you aren't doing the Difficult Position or One Armed options.

You can't get Level 3, no matter what else you do without satisfying the requirements for levels 1 & 2.

You can't get Level4, no matter what else you do, without satisfying the requirements for levels 1, 2 & 3.

That's how the logic works. Difficult entry only matters as one option for getting level 4, if you have already satisfied the requirements for levels 1, 2, & 3. It can't be used to amp a level 1 to level 2, or level 2 to level 3. And it is not even a requirement for level 4-it's an option for using less rotations to qualify for level 4 than you would need otherwise.

As to spins, mskater93, recentering is not listed in the Tech Handbook. It isn't even mentioned in the judge's handbook as a potential GOE reducer (Table on P. 12). Strictly speaking, from a rotational point of view, Tessa & Scott should have received -1, because their spin had "variable stability" However, they earned much higher because judges must have regarded the other stages of their spin as really excellent because quite a few judges gave them GOE of +3 (I wouldn't have myself, +2 at best)

Because this is a Senior B, the judging is not secret, so we know which judge gave which mark:

Spin

3 Judge No.1 Ms. Laimute KRAUZIENE LTU
2 Judge No.2 Mr. Hal MARRON USA
2 Judge No.3 Mr. Roland WEHINGER SUI
3 Judge No.4 Ms. Maira ABASOVA RUS
3 Judge No.5 Ms. Leanna CARON CAN
3 Judge No.6 Ms. Virpi KUNNAS-HELMINEN FIN
3 Judge No.7 Ms. Danuta DUBROWKO POL
3 Judge No.8 Ms. Larissa SHULJATJEVA EST

Lift
2 Judge No.1 Ms. Laimute KRAUZIENE LTU
2 Judge No.2 Mr. Hal MARRON USA
2 Judge No.3 Mr. Roland WEHINGER SUI
2 Judge No.4 Ms. Maira ABASOVA RUS
2 Judge No.5 Ms. Leanna CARON CAN
2 Judge No.6 Ms. Virpi KUNNAS-HELMINEN FIN
3 Judge No.7 Ms. Danuta DUBROWKO POL
2 Judge No.8 Ms. Larissa SHULJATJEVA EST

Consequently, anyone worrying about whether Tessa & Scott have lost favor with the judges should be reassured. When a team can do a skill poorly enough that it is noticeable in real time by an amateur, and can be downgraded 2 or 3 levels by the tech panel who have slow motion replay, and the judges still give that element a GOE of +3 or +2, the team is in huge favor by the judges.

I'm particularly startled by the +2's and +3's on the lift. I presume the judges were hugely impressed by the impressive difficulty of the entrance, which the tech panel is not allowed to take into account.

For all the nervous V&M fans out there, let me show you something...in 2009 at Skate Canada in Kitchener I witnessed, sitting in the first row the most shakier routine I have ever seen them doing! Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUmg87mkuKs

Tessa was falling all over the place, I wish I understood Russian, as the commentator was amused by Scott's body language afterwards.
Yet, despite that, in 3 months they did a superb job skating perfectly.
So don't write them off just yet.

Absolutely! For whatever reason, they have always tended to start the season a bit slow. In Tracy Wilson's commentary on that OD, she said that she felt the problems Tessa was having were due to the weight of the skirt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63omRDl3eRg