Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 48

Thread: Virtue and Moir's Finlandia levels?

  1. #16
    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    2,777
    About the lift: when Scott stopped rotating, the technical panel automatically didn't consider the difficult entry and the change of position as level features anymore, and considered only the last part of the lift in order to assign the level, and there wasn't any level feature anymore to consider, so the lift reamained a level-1... Right? (I really like to understand how the technical panel works)

  2. #17
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Staring at the ocean and smiling.
    Posts
    15,304
    Quote Originally Posted by lavender View Post
    This is just one competition and to me it means nothing towards the Olympics. The competition is still very close and who knows what the judges will like more.
    I totally agree!

  3. #18
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Staring at the ocean and smiling.
    Posts
    15,304
    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post
    About the lift: when Scott stopped rotating, the technical panel automatically didn't consider the difficult entry and the change of position as level features anymore, and considered only the last part of the lift in order to assign the level, and there wasn't any level feature anymore to consider, so the lift reamained a level-1... Right? (I really like to understand how the technical panel works)
    There's 3 basically different strategies for getting a level of more than One on a rotational lif. Option 2 involves a one handed/one armed lift, which wasn't what Tessa & Scott were doing.

    There are two ways other than that. One way is for the lifted partner to hit an IJS approved difficult pose and for both partners to make the requisite number of revolutions to get the level 2. The other way requires a change of pose by the lifted partner. At least 2 poses must be struck, both distinct enough that a photograph of each would be distinctly different. Then both partners must make enough revolutions to qualify for level 2, but additionally:

    in Rotational Lifts, the movement through the Change of Pose occurs during rotations of
    both lifting and lifted partners.
    This requirement was clarified by the question I quoted, that says, yes, if the lifting partner stops rotating during the change of pose, no credit for a change of pose can be given. So you can't get Level 2 without a Change of Pose, if you aren't doing the Difficult Position or One Armed options.

    You can't get Level 3, no matter what else you do without satisfying the requirements for levels 1 & 2.

    You can't get Level4, no matter what else you do, without satisfying the requirements for levels 1, 2 & 3.

    That's how the logic works. Difficult entry only matters as one option for getting level 4, if you have already satisfied the requirements for levels 1, 2, & 3. It can't be used to amp a level 1 to level 2, or level 2 to level 3. And it is not even a requirement for level 4-it's an option for using less rotations to qualify for level 4 than you would need otherwise.

    As to spins, mskater93, recentering is not listed in the Tech Handbook. It isn't even mentioned in the judge's handbook as a potential GOE reducer (Table on P. 12). Strictly speaking, from a rotational point of view, Tessa & Scott should have received -1, because their spin had "variable stability" However, they earned much higher because judges must have regarded the other stages of their spin as really excellent because quite a few judges gave them GOE of +3 (I wouldn't have myself, +2 at best)

    Because this is a Senior B, the judging is not secret, so we know which judge gave which mark:

    Spin

    3 Judge No.1 Ms. Laimute KRAUZIENE LTU
    2 Judge No.2 Mr. Hal MARRON USA
    2 Judge No.3 Mr. Roland WEHINGER SUI
    3 Judge No.4 Ms. Maira ABASOVA RUS
    3 Judge No.5 Ms. Leanna CARON CAN
    3 Judge No.6 Ms. Virpi KUNNAS-HELMINEN FIN
    3 Judge No.7 Ms. Danuta DUBROWKO POL
    3 Judge No.8 Ms. Larissa SHULJATJEVA EST

    Lift
    2 Judge No.1 Ms. Laimute KRAUZIENE LTU
    2 Judge No.2 Mr. Hal MARRON USA
    2 Judge No.3 Mr. Roland WEHINGER SUI
    2 Judge No.4 Ms. Maira ABASOVA RUS
    2 Judge No.5 Ms. Leanna CARON CAN
    2 Judge No.6 Ms. Virpi KUNNAS-HELMINEN FIN
    3 Judge No.7 Ms. Danuta DUBROWKO POL
    2 Judge No.8 Ms. Larissa SHULJATJEVA EST

    Consequently, anyone worrying about whether Tessa & Scott have lost favor with the judges should be reassured. When a team can do a skill poorly enough that it is noticeable in real time by an amateur, and can be downgraded 2 or 3 levels by the tech panel who have slow motion replay, and the judges still give that element a GOE of +3 or +2, the team is in huge favor by the judges.

    I'm particularly startled by the +2's and +3's on the lift. I presume the judges were hugely impressed by the impressive difficulty of the entrance, which the tech panel is not allowed to take into account.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 10-11-2013 at 11:46 AM.

  4. #19
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Toronto, On
    Posts
    1,799
    For all the nervous V&M fans out there, let me show you something...in 2009 at Skate Canada in Kitchener I witnessed, sitting in the first row the most shakier routine I have ever seen them doing! Here it is:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUmg87mkuKs

    Tessa was falling all over the place, I wish I understood Russian, as the commentator was amused by Scott's body language afterwards.
    Yet, despite that, in 3 months they did a superb job skating perfectly.
    So don't write them off just yet.

  5. #20
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Staring at the ocean and smiling.
    Posts
    15,304
    Absolutely! For whatever reason, they have always tended to start the season a bit slow. In Tracy Wilson's commentary on that OD, she said that she felt the problems Tessa was having were due to the weight of the skirt.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63omRDl3eRg
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 10-11-2013 at 11:40 PM.

  6. #21
    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    2,777
    But, for example, please look at the RoLi that Y/M performed yesterday in the SD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtWkWqRjkAI
    For what I can see, he clearly stops rotating while she's changing position, and the lift received level4... What's the difference? A generous technical panel while the panel in Finlandia was very strict?

  7. #22
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    27
    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post
    But, for example, please look at the RoLi that Y/M performed yesterday in the SD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtWkWqRjkAI
    For what I can see, he clearly stops rotating while she's changing position, and the lift received level4... What's the difference? A generous technical panel while the panel in Finlandia was very strict?
    The assistant technical specialist at Finlandia was American. Does that help?

  8. #23
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    beijing
    Posts
    1,910
    Quote Originally Posted by veravina View Post
    The assistant technical specialist at Finlandia was American. Does that help?
    Well no actually it doesn't. Boo to you for insinuating bias and from the lowest ranking member of the Tech Panel. Finlandia panels are usually strict to the letter of the regulations. Have you considered that the Finlandia panel called it strictly but correctly, and maybe the judging at the JGP Tallinn dance competition was more lax? A look at the tech panel there might be interesting.

  9. #24
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Staring at the ocean and smiling.
    Posts
    15,304
    Okay, let's look at yesterday's SD performance for Y&M. Here's the exact lift in question:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...WkWqRjkAI#t=90

    The technical controller at this event was the same Maurizio Margaglio who is the house technical specialist for Virtue & Moir, and who said in the KnC at Finlandia, you guys did your job, but we did not. Since Igor left, the Canton dancers have not been as up on tech levels as the Novi rink skaters of Shpilband.

    This could be part of the reason. Maurizio may not have the real eagle eye.

    The usual method of tech panel crookedness is not calling too tightly, because skaters are allowed to challenge any incorrect calls at the event.

    The better method is being too loose with your favored skaters, because their competitors cannot challenge the marks of the favored couple.

    BTW, the assistant tech specialist can only highlight a skill for review, especially with something like a lift. The technical specialist is the person who calls all the skills where both skaters are doing the same thing, like lifts and spins. The assistant can disagree, and then the controller casts the deciding vote. So one assistant tech specialist is not the deciding factor in any call, and if the call was wrong, V&M could have challenged it.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 10-12-2013 at 11:07 AM.

  10. #25
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    2,637
    Hmm, I am not sure it is so great to have judges or experts who competed against some of the competitors - Even the appearance of bias is not good or could be bias. Hasn't Maurizio competed against some of the remaining dancers?

  11. #26
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    1,011
    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Okay, let's look at yesterday's SD performance for Y&M. Here's the exact lift in question:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...WkWqRjkAI#t=90

    The technical controller at this event was the same Maurizio Margaglio who is the house technical specialist for Virtue & Moir, and who said in the KnC at Finlandia, you guys did your job, but we did not. Since Igor left, the Canton dancers have not been as up on tech levels as the Novi rink skaters of Shpilband.

    This could be part of the reason. Maurizio may not have the real eagle eye.

    The usual method of tech panel crookedness is not calling too tightly, because skaters are allowed to challenge any incorrect calls at the event.

    The better method is being too loose with your favored skaters, because their competitors cannot challenge the marks of the favored couple.

    BTW, the assistant tech specialist can only highlight a skill for review, especially with something like a lift. The technical specialist is the person who calls all the skills where both skaters are doing the same thing, like lifts and spins. The assistant can disagree, and then the controller casts the deciding vote. So one assistant tech specialist is not the deciding factor in any call, and if the call was wrong, V&M could have challenged it.
    True. However, in Pairs and Ice Dance, the tech specialists split who watches whom. One will take the man, the other the woman. So, in effect, both can highlight a skill for review.

  12. #27
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Staring at the ocean and smiling.
    Posts
    15,304
    Certainly, he has competed against Pechalat & Bourzat. Both teams were at the 2006 Olympics.

    What I find more questionable is when Marina Zueva's school has a team in an event or when Finnish dancers are competing (Maurizio works with the Finnish dancers), should Maurizio be on the tech panel? How about when teams they compete against nationally from different schools are in the event? Should he be on the panel? How about Sergei Ponomarenko being on the panel when Chock & Bates and Igor's other students are skating?

  13. #28
    Custom Title BlackPack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,034
    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    The technical controller at this event was the same Maurizio Margaglio who is the house technical specialist for Virtue & Moir, and who said in the KnC at Finlandia, you guys did your job, but we did not. Since Igor left, the Canton dancers have not been as up on tech levels as the Novi rink skaters of Shpilband.

    This could be part of the reason. Maurizio may not have the real eagle eye.
    As always, your knowledge impressive and profound, Doris, but I'm not quite clear on what you are saying. Is Maurizio saying that V&M's levels aren't as good as when Igor was there or that Maurizio isn't observant enough?

  14. #29
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Staring at the ocean and smiling.
    Posts
    15,304
    Here at JGP Riga, Maurizio, as technical specialist, did not call Yanovskaia & Mozgoz for Mozgov stopping during a change of position in a change of position lift, which would have given Y&M a level 1 for the rotational lift (and, of course, the other 2 panel members didn't call it either). Granted the stop was not quite as easy to see as Scott's stop at Finlandia, but there was a stop in rotation.

    There are 3 possibilities:
    Maurizio may be knowledgeable, but does not have the "eagle eye" to see flaws with 100% detection.
    Maurizio may not be enough knowledgeable.
    Maurizio is cheating here.

    Since Maurizio has no reason to cheat at a JGP, and since he has been a tech specialist a long time, I am sure he knows the rules. Consequently, my guess is that he is not an eagle eyed guy.

    And so I wonder, what other consequences do his difficulties have?

    Since Igor left Canton, both V&M and D&W have not been getting levels that I would expect for them at their first showing of programs.

    Perhaps, I think, it is not surprising that he is not noticing the more difficult to see flaws in V&M's and D&W's skating, particularly in pattern dances. As a result, a top-notch team like V&M which should be at least able to get level 3 for both Finnstep segments got level 2, because they have not been taught the key points well enough (CD's judged under the system in place when V&M and D&W last competed the Finnstep in 2010 was really pretty much like 6.0.

    It's just a conjecture. And Maurizio wear glasses, not contacts, which makes me wonder how good his peripheral vision is...

  15. #30
    Custom Title BlackPack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,034
    The way I see it, Maurizio is really helping V&M. He can let Y&M slide because they won't be medal contenders in Sochi. Maurizio is picking on V&M hard, so that they know what to improve on. When it comes to competing with D&W, every single little 1/10th of a point counts.

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •