2013-2014 Skate America - Ladies Championshps

bekalc · Oct 20, 2013

I think part of the problem is the commentators don't explain the sport enough. Especially if its an American they don't explain the weaknesses. I think the audience is capable of accepting one mistake like Mao's if they mention Asada's qualities over Ashley, harder spins, harder footwork and better skating skills. But the commentators don't.

I thought both scores were a bit high.

I am going to say this, they should have shown V/T. BOTH programs. They didn't show them because they aren't Americans but great skating is great skating. And pairs when done right is the most spectacular of the disciplines. When done poorly its also the most horrific to watch.

I'm not sure I love Jesus Christ Superstar program but those elements are amazing.

If you have great skating-show it. I bet the casual fan would have liked that.

Tonichelle · Oct 20, 2013

bekalc said:
I think part of the problem is the commentators don't explain the sport enough. Especially if its an American they don't explain the weaknesses. I think the audience is capable of accepting one mistake like Mao's if they mention Asada's qualities over Ashley, harder spins, harder footwork and better skating skills. But the commentators don't.

I thought both scores were a bit high.

I am going to say this, they should have shown V/T. BOTH programs. They didn't show them because they aren't Americans but great skating is great skating. And pairs when done right is probably the most spectacular of the disciplines.

I'm not sure I love Jesus Christ Superstar program but those elements are amazing.

If you have great skating-show it.

I agree... and as much as people want to blame Sandra and Scott - NBC seems to have NO desire to fix the problem. Ultimately whoever is in charge of the directing/decisions has decided that all commentators are supposed to do is bolster team USA, and not really educate on the new system.

chloepoco · Oct 20, 2013

bekalc said:
I think part of the problem is the commentators don't explain the sport enough. Especially if its an American they don't explain the weaknesses. I think the audience is capable of accepting one mistake like Mao's if they mention Asada's qualities over Ashley, harder spins, harder footwork and better skating skills. But the commentators don't.

I thought both scores were a bit high.

I am going to say this, they should have shown V/T. BOTH programs. They didn't show them because they aren't Americans but great skating is great skating. And pairs when done right is the most spectacular of the disciplines. When done poorly its also the most horrific to watch.

I'm not sure I love Jesus Christ Superstar program but those elements are amazing.

If you have great skating-show it. I bet the casual fan would have liked that.

You are correct about commentators not explaining the sport--my friends thought, and still do think, a fall="you're out". Therefore, they thought Ashley won, based solely on Mao's falling.

Mathman · Oct 20, 2013

brightphoton said:
I didn't want to answer it directly because

They didn't seem keen on watching anymore figure skating. They might watch some to please me, but not of their own volition.

I hate to be a johnny-one-note, but IMHO everything keeps coming back to the CoP and the kind of program that it encourages and rewards. An example of a performance that, I believe, might make a casual viewer want to come back for more would be Michelle Kwan's Tosca LP at 2004 Nationals.

(Let's see, I think I have it bookmarked here...Oh yes, 614,000 views, only 1000 or so mine.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWQSoIEAxns

Old warhorse music with no attempt at interpreting it, no particular choreography that I can make out, just a series of jumping passes and a footwork sequence. No triple-triple, no technical or artistic novelty. And yet, 600,000 people clicked on it (or 12,000 people 50 times each).

Why? She did what she came to do. She landed her jumps. She put her heart on her sleeve, the audience in her back pocket, and she skated like the devil was chasing her.

This CoP point-whoring has sucked the soul out of the sport. (Just my opinion, of course, YMMD

)

chloepoco · Oct 20, 2013

Mathman said:
This CoP point-whoring has sucked the soul out of the sport. (Just my opinion, of course, YMMD )

Sad, but true.

Tonichelle · Oct 20, 2013

Kind of ironic that you say it sucked the soul out of sport and yet you talk of a program that is admitted void of choreography or soul.

Mathman · Oct 20, 2013

^ No, no, I said the devil was after her. He didn't catch her.

bekalc · Oct 20, 2013

Mathman said:
I hate to be a johnny-one-note, but IMHO everything keeps coming back to the CoP and the kind of program that it encourages and rewards. An example of a performance that, I believe, might make a casual viewer want to come back for more would be Michelle Kwan's Tosca LP at 2004 Nationals.

(Let's see, I think I have it bookmarked here...Oh yes, 614,000 views, only 1000 or so mine.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWQSoIEAxns

Old warhorse music with no attempt at interpreting it, no particular choreography that I can make out, just a series of jumping passes and a footwork sequence. No triple-triple, no technical or artistic novelty. And yet, 600,000 people clicked on it (or 12,000 people 50 times each).

Why? She did what she came to do. She landed her jumps. She put her heart on her sleeve, the audience in her back pocket, and she skated like the devil was chasing her.

This CoP point-whoring has sucked the soul out of the sport. (Just my opinion, of course, YMMD )

Here's the thing though truly great skating is great skating. Kwan always had a fabulous connection with the audience. I think there have been programs under IJS that the public would like. For example, (I didn't care much for the Olympic music) but I suspect the casual fan would enjoy Kim's World long program. It was a fabulous skate. I showed it to my mother on youtube, and she was like wow!...

I think Kostner's last two long programs as well. And Asada has had some great programs too.

That's why I said V/T should have been shown.

Truly great skating is truly great skating.

I do think the lack of encouraging quality and clean skating is a problem. Errors aren't punished much but there's a balance between you fell once your out, and falling multiple times.

Mathman · Oct 20, 2013

bekalc said:
Here's the thing though truly great skating is great skating. Kwan always had a fabulous connection with the audience. I think there have been programs under IJS that the public would like. For example, (I didn't care much for the Olympic music) but I suspect the casual fan would enjoy Kim's World long program. It was a fabulous skate. I showed it to my mother on youtube, and she was like wow!...

That's because it was a 6.0 program skated in the CoP era.

bekalc · Oct 20, 2013

Mathman said:
That's because it was a 6.0 program skated in the CoP era.

I saw IJS stuff to it. My mom liked it because it looked effortless.

Krislite · Oct 20, 2013

bekalc said:
Here's the thing though truly great skating is great skating. Kwan always had a fabulous connection with the audience. I think there have been programs under IJS that the public would like. For example, (I didn't care much for the Olympic music) but I suspect the casual fan would enjoy Kim's World long program. It was a fabulous skate. I showed it to my mother on youtube, and she was like wow!...

I think Kostner's last two long programs as well. And Asada has had some great programs too.

That's why I said V/T should have been shown.

Truly great skating is truly great skating.

I do think the lack of encouraging quality and clean skating is a problem. Errors aren't punished much but there's a balance between you fell once your out, and falling multiple times.

I wasn't a big follower of skating in the Pre-COP era. Were there really more "clean" programs then? I know it's often said that CoP is so technically strict that skaters have no choice but to focus excessive effort on counting spin revolutions, fully rotating jumps, doing enough "busy" movements to get transitions, etc. that quality and cleanliness suffers.

bekalc · Oct 20, 2013

Krislite said:
I wasn't a big follower of skating in the Pre-COP era. Were there really more "clean" programs then? I know it's often said that CoP is so technically strict that skaters have no choice but to focus excessive effort on counting spin revolutions, fully rotating jumps, doing enough "busy" movements to get transitions, etc. that quality and cleanliness suffers.

I think that people at times have selective memories.

For example, when I watch 6.0 programs now, I actually notice how empty a lot of them are, and how weak the spinning is too. The footwork also looks easy. So for me, I think there is some good about IJS.

Also there were some crazy results. I don't think Patrick would have won 2013 worlds under 6.0 and I do think the quality of a whole program needs to be taken into account.

Also while I think spinning in a lot of ways is better now, I must say I miss super fast and tight spins. A LOT and unique moves. Just because someone can eek out a spin, doesn't mean they should.

In terms of dance though, I miss some of the dance programs. I don't know if anyone can top K/P's 1992 Olympic free.

Tonichelle · Oct 20, 2013

Krislite said:
I wasn't a big follower of skating in the Pre-COP era. Were there really more "clean" programs then?

No.

Blades of Passion · Oct 21, 2013

You can still have plenty of artistry with CoP, the problem is the judges don't reward it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovkJMZmhFe8

This deserved the highest PCS of the the Ladies competition at Skate America, but instead she only got the 5th highest. She also got screwed over on some of the level calls (Layback called as Level 1 when it's clearly Level 3? Footwork only called as Level 2, should have been level 3. Combination spin was a Level 4, but she only got credit for Level 3).

brightphoton · Oct 21, 2013

Mathman, why? Why rehash the 6.0 v. CoP debate again? For all of CoP's flaws, 6.0 was no better.

Jumps: Underrotations totally okay! They count just as much as fully rotated jumps, gold medal for you at Salt Lake City. Poorly executed jumps? It's okay, you still get a gold medal at Lillihammer. But have a fall, and you might as well stop skating and roll around the ice for 4 minutes.

Spins: Spins were an afterthought. Mostly spins were literally 5 or 6 revolutions with lazy positions. Why even put them there except as a check mark for the requirements of a free skate? I know people on this board love Alissa Czisny and Sasha Cohen, it is because of CoP that skaters with poor jumps but amazing spins and spirals are able to do as well as they do.

Footwork: do some 3-4 random steps really fast, it's just a requirements of a free skate, complete afterthought.

Don't even get me started with the whole ordinal system of ranking skaters.

Blades of Passion · Oct 21, 2013

brightphoton said:
Mathman, why? Why rehash the 6.0 v. CoP debate again? For all of CoP's flaws, 6.0 was no better.

6.0 was far better in terms of audience participation.

wordsworthgirl · Oct 21, 2013

bekalc said:
I think part of the problem is the commentators don't explain the sport enough. Especially if its an American they don't explain the weaknesses. I think the audience is capable of accepting one mistake like Mao's if they mention Asada's qualities over Ashley, harder spins, harder footwork and better skating skills. But the commentators don't.

I thought both scores were a bit high.

I am going to say this, they should have shown V/T. BOTH programs. They didn't show them because they aren't Americans but great skating is great skating. And pairs when done right is the most spectacular of the disciplines. When done poorly its also the most horrific to watch.

I'm not sure I love Jesus Christ Superstar program but those elements are amazing.

If you have great skating-show it. I bet the casual fan would have liked that.

I COMPLETELY agree with you- they should have showed V/T. My husband, new second husband so is just getting gently indoctrinated

into skating by me!, was DAZZLED by them. We watched them on Ice Network. He also loved Davis and White. and interestingly, out of the programs shown today on NBC, Adam Rippon's was his favorite. I do think Adam has potential to cross over and win fans who normally wouldn't watch/like figure skating. My husband also thought Mao and Ashley were interesting and with cleaner skates could have been great. He totally zoned out during Max Aaron, the Italian girl, and the little Russian girl grossed him out!

wordsworthgirl · Oct 21, 2013

szidon said:
I agree Asada was overscored by about 10 points. But Wagner has something to develop to be on the podium in the Olympics: transition and spins.
During the program, she usually skates on two feet. It's not a skating quality to be expected for an Olympic medal contender.

I agree with you both- Asada was overscored, but still should have won, and Ashley has a lot more to develop, and can develop before the Olympics. I think she is off to a solid start. Even she knew- and openly said on tv- that a few of her jumps were two-footed!

That being said, here's my new take on Mao: I must say, despite Mao's errors in the long, I was quite delighted and moved by the enormous growth in her skating quality over the past 4 years. I have never been a Mao fan, but I am a huge fan now. I admire her tenacity, her willingness to rework technique and push herself artistically, her calm, gentle strength, and good humor. She used to look stiff and mechanical on the ice; now she is flowing and ethereal. I LOVE both programs, and I agree with Sandra Bezic that the move to the Satos has been great for her. Gorgeous choreography that showcases both her power and her delicacy, emotional nuance, a complete package. Proud of her and actually rooting for her- I never thought I would say that!

wordsworthgirl · Oct 21, 2013

Blades of Passion said:
6.0 was far better in terms of audience participation.

Blades, I agree with you- there was something so thrilling about the 6s for transcendent performances, like Rudy Galindo's Nationals win and Michelle's 1998 Nationals performances.

However, I also agree with BrightpPhoton and others above that the new judging system has a lot of virtues to it. Some that come to mind are that flashes in the pan with under-rotated jumps- like Sarah Hughes and Kimmie Meissner (not to mention Tara L) can no longer win because they have no nerves and go for it, landing everything and looking like the best to the casual viewer. The young winners in 1994, 1998, 2002, winners who never went on to make good on their Olympic Gold Medal promise as either amateurs or professionals, were a major reason the sport began to decline in popularity. Other advantages of the new scoring system: better rounded skaters like Jeremy A, Sasha C, Alissa, Stephane L, Carolina K have a chance at medals, and artistry will never be lost for the sport. Moreover, skaters are encouraged to continually tweak their programs and improve the quality of EVERY aspect of their skating, not just the jumps, in order to do better with the judges.

hikki · Oct 21, 2013

wordsworthgirl said:
That being said, here's my new take on Mao: I must say, despite Mao's errors in the long, I was quite delighted and moved by the enormous growth in her skating quality over the past 4 years. I have never been a Mao fan, but I am a huge fan now. I admire her tenacity, her willingness to rework technique and push herself artistically, her calm, gentle strength, and good humor. She used to look stiff and mechanical on the ice; now she is flowing and ethereal. I LOVE both programs, and I agree with Sandra Bezic that the move to the Satos has been great for her. Gorgeous choreography that showcases both her power and her delicacy, emotional nuance, a complete package. Proud of her and actually rooting for her- I never thought I would say that!

Oh I'm so please to read this, wordsworthgirl.
She was oversscored (I said that in the Ladies LP thread) yes, but her win was well deserved and I have such a tremendous respect for her for the reasons you mentioned. Go Mao!!!! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

2013-2014 Skate America - Ladies Championshps

bekalc

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

chloepoco

Mathman

chloepoco

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

Mathman

bekalc

Mathman

bekalc

Krislite

bekalc

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

brightphoton

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

wordsworthgirl

wordsworthgirl

wordsworthgirl

hikki

Similar threads

Connect with us