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Thread: 2013-2014 Skate America - Ladies Championshps

  1. #31
    Six Point Zero Krislite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    Here's the thing though truly great skating is great skating. Kwan always had a fabulous connection with the audience. I think there have been programs under IJS that the public would like. For example, (I didn't care much for the Olympic music) but I suspect the casual fan would enjoy Kim's World long program. It was a fabulous skate. I showed it to my mother on youtube, and she was like wow!...

    I think Kostner's last two long programs as well. And Asada has had some great programs too.

    That's why I said V/T should have been shown.

    Truly great skating is truly great skating.

    I do think the lack of encouraging quality and clean skating is a problem. Errors aren't punished much but there's a balance between you fell once your out, and falling multiple times.
    I wasn't a big follower of skating in the Pre-COP era. Were there really more "clean" programs then? I know it's often said that CoP is so technically strict that skaters have no choice but to focus excessive effort on counting spin revolutions, fully rotating jumps, doing enough "busy" movements to get transitions, etc. that quality and cleanliness suffers.

  2. #32
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krislite View Post
    I wasn't a big follower of skating in the Pre-COP era. Were there really more "clean" programs then? I know it's often said that CoP is so technically strict that skaters have no choice but to focus excessive effort on counting spin revolutions, fully rotating jumps, doing enough "busy" movements to get transitions, etc. that quality and cleanliness suffers.
    I think that people at times have selective memories.

    For example, when I watch 6.0 programs now, I actually notice how empty a lot of them are, and how weak the spinning is too. The footwork also looks easy. So for me, I think there is some good about IJS.

    Also there were some crazy results. I don't think Patrick would have won 2013 worlds under 6.0 and I do think the quality of a whole program needs to be taken into account.

    Also while I think spinning in a lot of ways is better now, I must say I miss super fast and tight spins. A LOT and unique moves. Just because someone can eek out a spin, doesn't mean they should.

    In terms of dance though, I miss some of the dance programs. I don't know if anyone can top K/P's 1992 Olympic free.

  3. #33
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krislite View Post
    I wasn't a big follower of skating in the Pre-COP era. Were there really more "clean" programs then?
    No.

  4. #34
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    You can still have plenty of artistry with CoP, the problem is the judges don't reward it:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovkJMZmhFe8

    This deserved the highest PCS of the the Ladies competition at Skate America, but instead she only got the 5th highest. She also got screwed over on some of the level calls (Layback called as Level 1 when it's clearly Level 3? Footwork only called as Level 2, should have been level 3. Combination spin was a Level 4, but she only got credit for Level 3).

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    Mathman, why? Why rehash the 6.0 v. CoP debate again? For all of CoP's flaws, 6.0 was no better.

    Jumps: Underrotations totally okay! They count just as much as fully rotated jumps, gold medal for you at Salt Lake City. Poorly executed jumps? It's okay, you still get a gold medal at Lillihammer. But have a fall, and you might as well stop skating and roll around the ice for 4 minutes.

    Spins: Spins were an afterthought. Mostly spins were literally 5 or 6 revolutions with lazy positions. Why even put them there except as a check mark for the requirements of a free skate? I know people on this board love Alissa Czisny and Sasha Cohen, it is because of CoP that skaters with poor jumps but amazing spins and spirals are able to do as well as they do.

    Footwork: do some 3-4 random steps really fast, it's just a requirements of a free skate, complete afterthought.

    Don't even get me started with the whole ordinal system of ranking skaters.

  6. #36
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brightphoton View Post
    Mathman, why? Why rehash the 6.0 v. CoP debate again? For all of CoP's flaws, 6.0 was no better.
    6.0 was far better in terms of audience participation.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    I think part of the problem is the commentators don't explain the sport enough. Especially if its an American they don't explain the weaknesses. I think the audience is capable of accepting one mistake like Mao's if they mention Asada's qualities over Ashley, harder spins, harder footwork and better skating skills. But the commentators don't.

    I thought both scores were a bit high.

    I am going to say this, they should have shown V/T. BOTH programs. They didn't show them because they aren't Americans but great skating is great skating. And pairs when done right is the most spectacular of the disciplines. When done poorly its also the most horrific to watch.

    I'm not sure I love Jesus Christ Superstar program but those elements are amazing.


    If you have great skating-show it. I bet the casual fan would have liked that.
    I COMPLETELY agree with you- they should have showed V/T. My husband, new second husband so is just getting gently indoctrinated into skating by me!, was DAZZLED by them. We watched them on Ice Network. He also loved Davis and White. and interestingly, out of the programs shown today on NBC, Adam Rippon's was his favorite. I do think Adam has potential to cross over and win fans who normally wouldn't watch/like figure skating. My husband also thought Mao and Ashley were interesting and with cleaner skates could have been great. He totally zoned out during Max Aaron, the Italian girl, and the little Russian girl grossed him out!

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by szidon View Post
    I agree Asada was overscored by about 10 points. But Wagner has something to develop to be on the podium in the Olympics: transition and spins.
    During the program, she usually skates on two feet. It's not a skating quality to be expected for an Olympic medal contender.
    I agree with you both- Asada was overscored, but still should have won, and Ashley has a lot more to develop, and can develop before the Olympics. I think she is off to a solid start. Even she knew- and openly said on tv- that a few of her jumps were two-footed!

    That being said, here's my new take on Mao: I must say, despite Mao's errors in the long, I was quite delighted and moved by the enormous growth in her skating quality over the past 4 years. I have never been a Mao fan, but I am a huge fan now. I admire her tenacity, her willingness to rework technique and push herself artistically, her calm, gentle strength, and good humor. She used to look stiff and mechanical on the ice; now she is flowing and ethereal. I LOVE both programs, and I agree with Sandra Bezic that the move to the Satos has been great for her. Gorgeous choreography that showcases both her power and her delicacy, emotional nuance, a complete package. Proud of her and actually rooting for her- I never thought I would say that!

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    6.0 was far better in terms of audience participation.
    Blades, I agree with you- there was something so thrilling about the 6s for transcendent performances, like Rudy Galindo's Nationals win and Michelle's 1998 Nationals performances.

    However, I also agree with BrightpPhoton and others above that the new judging system has a lot of virtues to it. Some that come to mind are that flashes in the pan with under-rotated jumps- like Sarah Hughes and Kimmie Meissner (not to mention Tara L) can no longer win because they have no nerves and go for it, landing everything and looking like the best to the casual viewer. The young winners in 1994, 1998, 2002, winners who never went on to make good on their Olympic Gold Medal promise as either amateurs or professionals, were a major reason the sport began to decline in popularity. Other advantages of the new scoring system: better rounded skaters like Jeremy A, Sasha C, Alissa, Stephane L, Carolina K have a chance at medals, and artistry will never be lost for the sport. Moreover, skaters are encouraged to continually tweak their programs and improve the quality of EVERY aspect of their skating, not just the jumps, in order to do better with the judges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wordsworthgirl View Post
    That being said, here's my new take on Mao: I must say, despite Mao's errors in the long, I was quite delighted and moved by the enormous growth in her skating quality over the past 4 years. I have never been a Mao fan, but I am a huge fan now. I admire her tenacity, her willingness to rework technique and push herself artistically, her calm, gentle strength, and good humor. She used to look stiff and mechanical on the ice; now she is flowing and ethereal. I LOVE both programs, and I agree with Sandra Bezic that the move to the Satos has been great for her. Gorgeous choreography that showcases both her power and her delicacy, emotional nuance, a complete package. Proud of her and actually rooting for her- I never thought I would say that!
    Oh I'm so please to read this, wordsworthgirl.
    She was oversscored (I said that in the Ladies LP thread) yes, but her win was well deserved and I have such a tremendous respect for her for the reasons you mentioned. Go Mao!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hikki View Post
    Oh I'm so please to read this, wordsworthgirl.
    She was oversscored (I said that in the Ladies LP thread) yes, but her win was well deserved and I have such a tremendous respect for her for the reasons you mentioned. Go Mao!!!!
    Go Mao indeed! Rooting for her to win gold now!

    Hikki, are you Japanese living in Australia?? How interesting if so. My stepmother is Japanese and lives in Kyoto.

  12. #42
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    I'll send you a private message, wordsworthgirl!

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by hikki View Post
    I'll send you a private message, wordsworthgirl!
    Great!

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    No way in hell a normal person would get those scores. In some Japanese or Korean broadcast I randomly came across I think they put each element's value on the screen and it does explain some at least. It will be healthy after a program at least the audience know the TES base value difference, not that it solves the problem but... When I started watching snooker I didn't know all the rules but after one or two games I figured it out without having to google the rules, whereas with IJS, I don't know if googling even helps.

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    [I think that people at times have selective memories.

    For example, when I watch 6.0 programs now, I actually notice how empty a lot of them are, and how weak the spinning is too. The footwork also looks easy. So for me, I think there is some good about IJS.
    ]

    I really agree with you on this. In fact, I don't think most of the top skaters' programs in ladies are that enjoyable to watch from today's standard (except for the fact they were clean). I would rather watching a full program with lots of transitions, choreography, good spins with some falls than watching a boring clean program.

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