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Thread: Are Loop combinations worth it?

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  1. #1
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    Are Loop combinations worth it?

    That a good triple-triple toe combination is helpful to one's scores is undeniable. Carolina Kostner and Yuna Kim have demonstrated that amply well. So has Elizaveta Tuktamysheva, who often gets very high TES thanks to her great 3Lutz-3Toe combination. Now, Ashley Wagner has started doing 3F-3T and getting good scores for them.

    On the other hand, triple-triple loop combinations are still quite rare and in 2013, ratified ones were as rare as unicorns or dragons (and rarer than ratified triple Axels if I recall). Just recently at Skate America, we saw Samantha Cesario attempting 3Lo-3Lo combos. They didn't get ratified and received -GOE. Who else has been attempting them recently?

    - Mao Asada has gone for them twice in 2013 and gotten neither ratified.
    - In 2010, Miki Ando was attempting 3Lutz-3Lo and getting no better than what she'd have earned from a 3Lutz-2Lo, if that.
    - Adelina Sotnikova used to land nice 3-3Lo combinations but has given up on them recently.
    - Caroline Zhang went for 3Lo-3Lo at Nationals in 2012 (?) but got her combination downgraded.

    Even when a 3-3Lo combo gets ratified, it rarely gets +GOE because it's difficult to get it all the way around and even when rotated, the Loop kills the flow out of the combination (e.g. Irina, Adelina who got great height but landed at a standstill). Because of this, a good 3-3Toe combo is usually showered with +1, +2, or +3 across the board thanks to the impressive height possible and the fact that one can still have good flow out. The GOE difference is usually enough to cancel out any BV advantage the 3-3Lo combo might originally have had. Since 2010, the ISU has attempted to address this by increasing the value of a 2Lo, decreasing the severe penalties on underrotations, and decreasing the GOE scaling from 1 to 0.7.

    So are 3-3Lo or -2Lo combinations worth it in terms of points? Are they worth it in terms of hip injuries? If they're worth it, why? And if not, how should the ISU go about increasing the incentive for Loop combinations?

  2. #2
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Well, considering Samantha Cesario was a girl that didn't medal at Jr. Worlds ever, and that she finished 5th overall at Skam, a very respectable finish for a senior GP debut, maybe it is worthwhile.

    Considering that Shin Amano did the calling, and he is known for being tough on UR's despite what Russian commentators say, possibly Sam might have one or both of those 3Lo3Lo's ratified at her next outing. They're better than Tara Lipinski's were, I think.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 10-23-2013 at 07:40 AM.

  3. #3
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Aesthetically yes. Competitively, probably not depending on the caller

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Well, considering Samantha Cesario was a girl that didn't medal at Jr. Worlds ever, and that she finished 5th overall at Skam, a very respectable finish for a senior GP debut, maybe it is worthwhile.

    Considering that Shin Amano did the calling, and he is known for being tough on UR's despite what Russian commentators say, possibly Sam might have one or both of those 3Lo3Lo's ratified at her next outing. They're better than Tara Lipinski's were, I think.
    Tara's jumps were puny. And she was just as gangly and not as sophisticated as Lipnskaya.

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    Having a 3/3 let's a skater attempt 7 triples (assuming no 3A), so as long at the 3-3R combo nets more points than a 3-2R combo, it may be worth it. Although a skater could also do a 3-2A SEQ that could earn more than a bad 3-3R too.

  6. #6
    Custom Title DobrinFan's Avatar
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    Sotnokova been landing 3lutz3loop(<) since test skates in August, much to many dismay. Apparently that's her 3/3 for the season but that may change.

  7. #7
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DobrinFan View Post
    Sotnikova been landing 3lutz3loop(<) since test skates in August, much to many dismay. Apparently that's her 3/3 for the season but that may change.
    Her 3Lutz+3Loop at Japan Open was sufficiently rotated. The < call there was crap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    Having a 3/3 let's a skater attempt 7 triples (assuming no 3A), so as long at the 3-3R combo nets more points than a 3-2R combo, it may be worth it. Although a skater could also do a 3-2A SEQ that could earn more than a bad 3-3R too.
    Skaters could attempt 7 triples if they had 2A-3T. And for people who could choose between Toe and Loop, you still haven't described any incentive to go for 3-3R rather than 3-3T. Because it's not the Loop itself that is difficult but doing it in combination, I would propose an increased BV for loops done on the back end of a combination (+0.3 for a double but reduce the BV of a plain 2R by 0.3, and +1 for a triple).

  9. #9
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    I'd extend that to give a percentage bonus for all jumps at the end of combinations.

    2T+3T should be worth more than 3T+2T

    1A+3S (one-foot axel) should be worth more than 3S+2T, let alone just the base value of the 1A added to the base value of 3S

    Maybe not quite as large an extra percentage if there's a half loop in between, but I still think a 3S or 3F after a triple and a half loop should be worth more than just its base mark as a solo jump.

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