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Thread: Are Loop combinations worth it?

  1. #1
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    Are Loop combinations worth it?

    That a good triple-triple toe combination is helpful to one's scores is undeniable. Carolina Kostner and Yuna Kim have demonstrated that amply well. So has Elizaveta Tuktamysheva, who often gets very high TES thanks to her great 3Lutz-3Toe combination. Now, Ashley Wagner has started doing 3F-3T and getting good scores for them.

    On the other hand, triple-triple loop combinations are still quite rare and in 2013, ratified ones were as rare as unicorns or dragons (and rarer than ratified triple Axels if I recall). Just recently at Skate America, we saw Samantha Cesario attempting 3Lo-3Lo combos. They didn't get ratified and received -GOE. Who else has been attempting them recently?

    - Mao Asada has gone for them twice in 2013 and gotten neither ratified.
    - In 2010, Miki Ando was attempting 3Lutz-3Lo and getting no better than what she'd have earned from a 3Lutz-2Lo, if that.
    - Adelina Sotnikova used to land nice 3-3Lo combinations but has given up on them recently.
    - Caroline Zhang went for 3Lo-3Lo at Nationals in 2012 (?) but got her combination downgraded.

    Even when a 3-3Lo combo gets ratified, it rarely gets +GOE because it's difficult to get it all the way around and even when rotated, the Loop kills the flow out of the combination (e.g. Irina, Adelina who got great height but landed at a standstill). Because of this, a good 3-3Toe combo is usually showered with +1, +2, or +3 across the board thanks to the impressive height possible and the fact that one can still have good flow out. The GOE difference is usually enough to cancel out any BV advantage the 3-3Lo combo might originally have had. Since 2010, the ISU has attempted to address this by increasing the value of a 2Lo, decreasing the severe penalties on underrotations, and decreasing the GOE scaling from 1 to 0.7.

    So are 3-3Lo or -2Lo combinations worth it in terms of points? Are they worth it in terms of hip injuries? If they're worth it, why? And if not, how should the ISU go about increasing the incentive for Loop combinations?

  2. #2
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Well, considering Samantha Cesario was a girl that didn't medal at Jr. Worlds ever, and that she finished 5th overall at Skam, a very respectable finish for a senior GP debut, maybe it is worthwhile.

    Considering that Shin Amano did the calling, and he is known for being tough on UR's despite what Russian commentators say, possibly Sam might have one or both of those 3Lo3Lo's ratified at her next outing. They're better than Tara Lipinski's were, I think.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 10-23-2013 at 07:40 AM.

  3. #3
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    Aesthetically yes. Competitively, probably not depending on the caller

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Well, considering Samantha Cesario was a girl that didn't medal at Jr. Worlds ever, and that she finished 5th overall at Skam, a very respectable finish for a senior GP debut, maybe it is worthwhile.

    Considering that Shin Amano did the calling, and he is known for being tough on UR's despite what Russian commentators say, possibly Sam might have one or both of those 3Lo3Lo's ratified at her next outing. They're better than Tara Lipinski's were, I think.
    Tara's jumps were puny. And she was just as gangly and not as sophisticated as Lipnskaya.

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    Having a 3/3 let's a skater attempt 7 triples (assuming no 3A), so as long at the 3-3R combo nets more points than a 3-2R combo, it may be worth it. Although a skater could also do a 3-2A SEQ that could earn more than a bad 3-3R too.

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    Custom Title DobrinFan's Avatar
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    Sotnokova been landing 3lutz3loop(<) since test skates in August, much to many dismay. Apparently that's her 3/3 for the season but that may change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    Having a 3/3 let's a skater attempt 7 triples (assuming no 3A), so as long at the 3-3R combo nets more points than a 3-2R combo, it may be worth it. Although a skater could also do a 3-2A SEQ that could earn more than a bad 3-3R too.
    Skaters could attempt 7 triples if they had 2A-3T. And for people who could choose between Toe and Loop, you still haven't described any incentive to go for 3-3R rather than 3-3T. Because it's not the Loop itself that is difficult but doing it in combination, I would propose an increased BV for loops done on the back end of a combination (+0.3 for a double but reduce the BV of a plain 2R by 0.3, and +1 for a triple).

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    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DobrinFan View Post
    Sotnikova been landing 3lutz3loop(<) since test skates in August, much to many dismay. Apparently that's her 3/3 for the season but that may change.
    Her 3Lutz+3Loop at Japan Open was sufficiently rotated. The < call there was crap.

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    I'd extend that to give a percentage bonus for all jumps at the end of combinations.

    2T+3T should be worth more than 3T+2T

    1A+3S (one-foot axel) should be worth more than 3S+2T, let alone just the base value of the 1A added to the base value of 3S

    Maybe not quite as large an extra percentage if there's a half loop in between, but I still think a 3S or 3F after a triple and a half loop should be worth more than just its base mark as a solo jump.

  10. #10
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    I would put ever MORE points on the back half if there's a 1/2 Lo, getting a 3S or 3F after one is tricky business!!

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    Sotnikova also appeared to have a sufficiently rotated 3-3 at Moscow Cup.

    It doesn't seem to be worth it because it makes more sense to have a solo loop with enough speed, rather than switching the 3L for a solo 3T (for example). It really doesn't seem to be worth it, unless you perfectly land the jump before with decent flow. I think it's too ambitious to try to land it off 3F/3Z and still complete the rotation.

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    Mao Asada's 3lo+2lo is frequently called 3lo+2lo<

  13. #13
    More or less: more is more sequinsgalore's Avatar
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    No. As the current system is, 3+3Lo combos are not worth risk compared to the low chance of getting it 100% ratified (no < or <<).

    I know an algorithm for combo base values is hard to think up. Here are the possibilites and problems:

    1. Add base values (current system).

    The problem is that it does not differentiate between e.g. 3T+2T (easier) or 2T+3T (harder). Both they both take up the same amount of jump slots.

    2. Multiply whole combo base value

    Again does not differentiate between 3T+2T (easier) or 2T+3T (harder). It will differentiate between layout "3Lz+3T and 4T" (easier) and "4T+3T and 3Lz" (harder). But should mistakes like 4T+1T benefit? Or should it be at least 2+3, 3+3 or 4+3 to get an award?

    3. Multiply backend

    Will differentiate 3T+2T and 2T+3T. But it will not differentiate on layout base value "2A+3T and 3Lz" (easier) and "3Lz+3T and 2A" (harder) unless you somehow take the first jump into acount in the mulitplication factor.

    4. New and higher base values for backend jump

    A 3Lo is worth 5.1 pts, but a +3Lo could be worth 7.0 pts. Again, you don't want to reward 1+3Lo more than 3+3Lo, so the first jump should probably be taken into acount.

    5. A list of base values for all possible combos

    Seems exhaustive, but maybe the fairest (if everyone could agree on base values, of course). It could make 3F+1Lo+3S (easier) would be less worth than 3S+1Lo+3F (harder). Also, you could give weird combos for 1A+3S or counterwise 2Lz worth more to make them worthwhile. It should probably be tweaked regulary in the beginning.

    Finally, sequences should probably be at least worth the sum of the individual jumps.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Mao Asada's 3lo+2lo is frequently called 3lo+2lo<
    1. That has almost nothing to do with the question of whether loop combinations are worth doing.
    2. You're wrong. Mao Asada's 3Lo-2Lo has been given full credit ever since the start of last season whenever she did the combination. It's her flip-loop combinations that give her trouble with < judgments.


    Quote Originally Posted by sequinsgalore View Post
    No. As the current system is, 3+3Lo combos are not worth risk compared to the low chance of getting it 100% ratified (no < or <<).
    1. Add base values (current system).
    2. Multiply whole combo base value
    3. Multiply backend
    4. New and higher base values for backend jump
    5. A list of base values for all possible combos
    Finally, sequences should probably be at least worth the sum of the individual jumps.
    1 leaves too much room for skaters to score cheap points with easier combinations. On that we agree. Multiplying the whole combo also doesn't account fully for different order of jumps like you said. I don't think 5 is necessary. A combination of 2 and 4 would IMO be the best solution.

  15. #15
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    Nope! Any jump combo that involves 3 loop second is stupid planning. That's why sotnikova is trying. Her team is stupid on strategy.

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