Random Figure Skating Questions

Indra · Nov 12, 2017

Maybe this have been asked about before, but I havent' read all the pages yet.

If I have understood it correct, all the single skaters and the pairs have 6 minutes to warm up, before they must leave the ice. But a commentator once said that the Ice skaters have 5 minutes to warm up. If so, why is that?

ICeleste · Nov 16, 2017

Figure skating is the only sport I know in which each competition goes on for 2 days instead of just a few hours of a single day. Who came up with the concepts of Short and Long programs? Is it necessary that skaters perform 2 programmes each competition? I mean, couldn't the results be determined based on only one performance per skater? I understand that skaters might benefit from having a chance to redeem themselves after a messy SP. Besides that though, I don't think that competitions lasting 2 days is good for engaging viewers or improving the popularity of the sport. Also, if skaters performed only one program per season, they'd have double the time to master it so they wouldn't recycle programs as often, since they'd find it easier to learn new ones

gkelly · Nov 16, 2017

Indra said:
Maybe this have been asked about before, but I havent' read all the pages yet.

If I have understood it correct, all the single skaters and the pairs have 6 minutes to warm up, before they must leave the ice. But a commentator once said that the Ice skaters have 5 minutes to warm up. If so, why is that?

Ice dancers have 5 minutes. Is that what you meant?
I guess because they don't have to warm up as many high-intensity risky tricks that make want time to catch their breath in between.

ICeleste said:
Figure skating is the only sport I know in which each competition goes on for 2 days instead of just a few hours of a single day. Who came up with the concepts of Short and Long programs? Is it necessary that skaters perform 2 programmes each competition? I mean, couldn't the results be determined based on only one performance per skater?

It's not completely necessary, especially the way the programs are currently defined. It's part of a tradition that goes back decades.

Originally singles skaters did many compulsory figures (school figures; going around and around in circles with great accuracy) and one freeskating program. Pair skaters just had an free program.

In the 1960s the ISU decided that pairs should have another program segment with required elements so they introduced the short program.

Meanwhile there was a movement to make figures less important and freeskating more important for singles skaters.

In the 1970s they added a short program for singles and reduced the number/importance of school figures. The requirements were very specific so it was much more about comparing apples to apples than today's SPs.

In 1989, the short program became a little less specific, and then in 1991 the school figures were eliminated entirely.

There have been various other changes to the short program and freeskating since then. But there really hasn't been any serious push to eliminate the short program that I'm aware of.

ribbit · Nov 16, 2017

ICeleste said:
Figure skating is the only sport I know in which each competition goes on for 2 days instead of just a few hours of a single day. Who came up with the concepts of Short and Long programs? Is it necessary that skaters perform 2 programmes each competition? I mean, couldn't the results be determined based on only one performance per skater? I understand that skaters might benefit from having a chance to redeem themselves after a messy SP. Besides that though, I don't think that competitions lasting 2 days is good for engaging viewers or improving the popularity of the sport.

Quite a number of sports have competition lasting over several days. Some athletics events, such as the decathlon or heptathlon, require competitors to complete a number of different activities over two days; others require competitors to repeat one activity (running, jumping, throwing) in several rounds over several days, as does a swim meet. An international gymnastics meet may require competitors to perform the same routines over as many as four days (qualifying round, team all-around finals, individual all-around finals, event finals), though I suppose you could argue that those are three separate competitions (qualification + each of the three finals). A golf tournament requires competitors to play the same course four times over four days. A cricket match can go on for up to five days. A tennis tournament takes between one and two weeks, but the match-play structure of tennis makes it a less apt comparison. Many cycling races stretch over six or seven days, with the three Grand Tours lasting three weeks each. As golf, athletics, cricket, and tennis are four of the most popular sports worldwide, the length of competition alone doesn't seem to be the problem.

I think the dynamics of multi-day competition can make for compelling drama. Will the golfer who had an uncharacteristically shaky first round redeem himself? Is the sprinter who ran (or swam) an unexpectedly slow heat just having an off-day, or nursing an injury, or truly out of medal contention? Will the young unknown who put together a perfect short program sustain that brilliance throughout her long program and make her first podium? This does require a somewhat knowledgeable audience member--but again, very popular sports have no trouble engaging viewers in these multi-day storylines.

Indra · Nov 17, 2017

gkelly said:
Ice dancers have 5 minutes. Is that what you meant?
I guess because they don't have to warm up as many high-intensity risky tricks that make want time to catch their breath in between.

Yes, I ment the Ice dancers. The guy who mentions this and often comments figure skating in my country, is a national jugde, so I thought that it would been weird if he was mistaken about that. Hmm, now that ypu mention it, it probably makes sence. I haven't bothered to google that, but I have been wondering about it sometimes after he said it.

BravesSkateFan · Nov 21, 2017

I had a thought while watching the pairs this weekend. This is completely random as I can't see it happening except perhaps at the lowest levels of skating, but if a pair were to go into SBS jumps but they executed different jumps, say the man did a 3toe and the woman did a 3sal would they get credit for the lowest scoring jump (3toe) or no credit at all? I'm assuming it would be the former since that is the case for mistakes, but I didn't know if it was specified anywhere.

gkelly · Nov 21, 2017

From the pairs technical panel handbook:

Unequal number of
revolutions
In case of unequal number of revolutions of partners in a jump pe
rformed as a
solo jump or part of a combo or a sequence, this jump will be called as a jump
with lesser amount of revolutions executed by the partners. The Judges will reflect
the mistake in their GOE.
Different Jumps
performed
If the partners
definitel
y
perform different types of jumps, the result is no Value.
The name of the jump will be “jump with a lesser value”. Only this jump will be
blocked from repetition. Example: 3T by one partner, 3S by the other partner will
result in 3T*.

It's very common that one skater does a triple and the other does a double or single from the same takeoff: they were both attempting the same triple, but one of them made a mistake.

It's very rare that pair skaters would ever do completely different takeoffs on their side-by-side jumps. I don't think I've ever seen that happen. The most likely reason I could think of was that the team had been practicing with one jump and recently changed it to a different jump, but one of the partners forgot in the heat of the moment and did the old version.

The two different jumps would have to have similar approaches -- otherwise the jumps would not be side by side and the partner who was remembering wrong would most likely be aware that something was not right before they got to the takeoff.

At the lowest levels of skating, of course no one would be doing triple jumps. At the lowest levels of pair skating, they'd be doing singles or easier doubles.

concorde · Nov 21, 2017

The last question got me thinking, has there ever been a pairs skater the performed their SBS jumps in opposite direction?

StitchMonkey · Nov 21, 2017

concorde said:
The last question got me thinking, has there ever been a pairs skater the performed their SBS jumps in opposite direction?

Kristi Yamaguchi & Rudy Galindo come to mind
https://youtu.be/AE02qmpJRJ0?t=161

dorispulaski · Nov 22, 2017

Y&G were the best mirror skating pair, but there have been a few others. For example, Tiffany Vise & Derek Trent, another mirror pair, were the first to land a quad Salchow throw.
here at 2007 GP Trophée Bompard
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FAZ02SsfgI0

They finished fourth.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Trophée_Éric_Bompard

lavenderblossom · Nov 24, 2017

Are pairs/dance couples allowed to do their twizzles in opposite directions? Have any?
(I was thinking about this before I looked in this forum and then I saw the last question :laugh:

)

TMC · Nov 24, 2017

dorispulaski said:
Y&G were the best mirror skating pair, but there have been a few others. For example, Tiffany Vise & Derek Trent, another mirror pair, were the first to land a quad Salchow throw.
here at 2007 GP Trophée Bompard
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FAZ02SsfgI0

They finished fourth.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Trophée_Éric_Bompard

I love that he applauds after they hit the quad :laugh:

I have a question about event start times. Why do some SA events start at random times, like 15:27 or 16:57 ? Why not 15:30 and 17:00?

gkelly · Nov 24, 2017

lavenderblossom said:
Are pairs/dance couples allowed to do their twizzles in opposite directions? Have any?
(I was thinking about this before I looked in this forum and then I saw the last question )

They are allowed.

A feature for the pairs step sequence is "Changes of position (crossing at least three times while doing steps and turns) for at least 1/3 of the sequence, but not more than 1/2 of the sequence."
When pairs choose to do the crossing patterns feature, they often do all their turns and steps, including twizzles if any, in mirror image for that portion of the pattern

For ice dance, one of the features for the twizzle element is "Set of Twizzles performed side by side in opposite direction (mirror), without crossing the other skater's pattern." They have to do the whole sequence in mirror image to earn this feature; one partner may not switch directions in the middle of the sequence.

I don't see anything that would reward or penalize this in the not-touching midline step sequence, but it is definitely allowed:
"Must incorporate mirror and/or matching footwork. Both partners may cross each other’s tracing(s) and may switch from matching footwork to mirror and vice versa, unless otherwise specified by the Ice Dance Technical Committee."

For the dance step sequences in hold, the partners would not likely be doing twizzles at the same time, or doing the same steps at the same time in general throughout the sequence.

TMC said:
I have a question about event start times. Why do some SA events start at random times, like 15:27 or 16:57 ? Why not 15:30 and 17:00?

My guess is: They know exactly how long each part of the setup for the event will take, e.g., the 6-minute warmup takes exactly 6 minutes. The TV network (NBC and affiliated sports channels in this case) wants to start the live broadcast at a specific minute in their broadcast schedule. So they ask the federation to back up the start time of the introductions and warmup so that the point in the proceedings where the network wants to start live coverage will happen exactly when they want it to happen.

TMC · Nov 24, 2017

gkelly said:
My guess is: They know exactly how long each part of the setup for the event will take, e.g., the 6-minute warmup takes exactly 6 minutes. The TV network (NBC and affiliated sports channels in this case) wants to start the live broadcast a specific minute in their broadcast schedule. So they ask the federation to backup the start time of the introductions and warmup so that the point in the proceedings where the network wants to start live coverage will happen exactly when they want it to happen.

Ahh of course - In my country skating is always on the public broadcasting channel so there are no commercials, that's probably why I didn't think of that possibility

Spirals for Miles · Nov 24, 2017

TMC said:
Ahh of course - In my country skating is always on the public broadcasting channel so there are no commercials, that's probably why I didn't think of that possibility

No commercials on skating??!! I want whatever you've got over there!
I heard FIVE of the same Prudential commercials in one hour.

TMC · Nov 24, 2017

Spirals for Miles said:
No commercials on skating??!! I want whatever you've got over there!
I heard FIVE of the same Prudential commercials in one hour.

We are really spoiled here - we get almost everything live online with and without commentary and the best parts on TV as well.

Heleng · Dec 9, 2017

The answer to this question is probably elementary (and probably already explained somewhere), but I couldn't find it. How is the overall GOE number determined in relationship to the GOE given by the individual judges? And why does it sometimes vary even when the individual judges' GOEs are the same? For example, in the men's GPF fs, Uno and Kolyada got minus 3 GOE for a jump from all nine judges, and both got minus 4 GOE off the jump's base value, whereas Chen got a minus 2.1 GOE off the base value for a jump on which he also got straight minus 3's from every judge.

Vanshilar · Dec 9, 2017

Heleng said:
The answer to this question is probably elementary (and probably already explained somewhere), but I couldn't find it. How is the overall GOE number determined in relationship to the GOE given by the individual judges? And why does it sometimes vary even when the individual judges' GOEs are the same? For example, in the men's GPF fs, Uno and Kolyada got minus 3 GOE for a jump from all nine judges, and both got minus 4 GOE off the jump's base value, whereas Chen got a minus 2.1 GOE off the base value for a jump on which he also got straight minus 3's from every judge.

The overall GOE used for computation is the average of the GOE's given by the judges, though (I think) the highest and the lowest are removed. Then, this overall GOE is factored by a certain amount depending on the difficulty of the jump; harder jumps are multiplied by a bigger amount. This is so judges can just think in terms of -3 to +3 regardless of jump and let the computer handle whether that really translates into a big or small penalty/bonus. In your case, Uno and Kolyada were doing quads, while Chen was doing a triple.

The GOE chart for different skills can be found here: http://www.usfsa.org/content/2017-18 SP Scale of Values.pdf

gkelly · Dec 9, 2017

The ISU publishes a Scale of Values every year or two that contains not only the base values of the elements but also the values of the positive and negative GOEs, which are not a strict percentage of the base values.

http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/ISU 2089-sptc-comm-goe-sov-2017-18.pdf
(I link from the USFS website because it's easier to navigate than the current ISU site)

For quads, in the current SoV, the point value of a -3 GOE is -4.00 points.

For a double axel, for example, the -3 GOE is worth only 1.5 points. For a spin, -3 works out to 0.9 points.

If I understand the calculation process correctly, I think the computer converts each judge's GOE to its point value and then averages the values for the whole panel. It's possible it works the other way around. That would be a topic for discussion in the math thread in The Edge.

If all judges give the same GOE, then the final value that is added or subtracted from the element's base score would be exactly what appears in the Scale of Values.

Heleng · Dec 9, 2017

Thank you both so much for your explanations! I hadn't realized there was a scale of values (I'd just assumed, without ever doing the math, that GOE was a straight average), so now it makes perfect sense.

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