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Is this post-olympic worlds turning out better than usual or are the scores just inflated? (I haven't had enough time to watch anything yet...)
Random Figure Skating Questions
- Thread starter tulosai
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- Feb 13, 2014
Hello everyone, it's me again. There is this question that has been bugging me for a while. Would you guys help me out?
In pair or ice dancing, people usually say the female skater is technically superior to the male one, I don't understand why, is this a tendency for most cases?
Thank you in advance. :yay:
In pair or ice dancing, people usually say the female skater is technically superior to the male one, I don't understand why, is this a tendency for most cases?
Thank you in advance. :yay:
Oh, my question is very stupid, but I always wanted to know: why 'Loop' jump is called 'Rittberger' in some European countries (incl. Russia and Ukraine)? I've never heard someone call it 'loop' here. I mean, if Rittberger was the first skater who jumped loop than why it called 'Loop' in the official rules and protocols? Salchow and Axel on the other hand named after skaters who jumped them first.
Here is another stupid question:
Does the bracket entry have any effect on rotations? I noticed that Ashley, Akiko, Kanako and Mao all have bracket entries to their 3F, and they tend to under rotate their jumps, especially the second jump in combo.
On the other hand, Yuna, Yulia, Caro...skate foward and make a sharp turn the same direction to enter the 3F, and they rarely underroate their jumps.
Are these just coincidences?
Does the bracket entry have any effect on rotations? I noticed that Ashley, Akiko, Kanako and Mao all have bracket entries to their 3F, and they tend to under rotate their jumps, especially the second jump in combo.
On the other hand, Yuna, Yulia, Caro...skate foward and make a sharp turn the same direction to enter the 3F, and they rarely underroate their jumps.
Are these just coincidences?
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I think the loop jump was called that because the takeoff is similar to a doing a loop in school figures. I don't know why Werner Rittberger isn't honored in the official protocols. In some ISU documents they say "loop jump (Rittberger)."
Meoima said:
I don't know about overall, but in the United States there are about 100 girls who want to take up ice dancing and pairs for every boy. So just on the law of averages there are a lot of very good girls trying to make do by scrounging up the best boy available. (That's what I think, anyway.
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In dance, there are about as many teams where the guy is a better skater as where the girl is. Pre COP you could have a team where the partners were not equal, but current rules require equal skills for both partners. There is always an attempt to pair up skaters who are equally skilled/talented these days.
Paul Poirier and Andrew Poje were more skilled than their current partners when they first teamed up.
Lobacheva never did catch up to Averbukh. I tend to feel Schoenfelder was a better skater than Delobel, and Kraatz was better than Bourne.
On the other side, Fusar Poli was stronger than Margaglio, Anissina was better than Peizerat, and Grushina was far better than Goncharov.
One thing: guys are taller. It's harder for a tall guy to jump. It's also a bit harder for tall guys to stay stable during twizzles. There's a reason that spinning tops are not tall and thin. The moment of Rotational inertia about non vertical axes is not as favorable.
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It's not a bracket that they do. They do a mohawk. The sharp turn is a 3 turn (looks like a 3 on the ice). A bracket it is like a 3 turn but turns the other way (looks like "{" on the ice). I don't know if the entrance makes a difference. Skaters just do whichever they're more comfortable with. It should be noted though that all the skaters you listed who go into the flip with a mohawk also have UR problems on other jumps while the skaters who do the 3 turn don't. I mean, for example, Osmond also does the flip with a mohawk and doesn't UR it. So probably it's just a coincidence.
Thank you, Doris.
I posted this in one of Mao threads but this thread seems more appropriate to ask about this:
Can someone explain how that tech score thing works on TV? The little box that shows up during the live broadcasting. Are they actual numbers that are given by the judges, with the highest and lowest taken out, then summed and averaged, minus technical panel's calls? Or are there 3rd party experts simulating judging according to what they see on the spot, later adjusted as the judges' scores are revealed?
Can someone explain how that tech score thing works on TV? The little box that shows up during the live broadcasting. Are they actual numbers that are given by the judges, with the highest and lowest taken out, then summed and averaged, minus technical panel's calls? Or are there 3rd party experts simulating judging according to what they see on the spot, later adjusted as the judges' scores are revealed?
What I have heard is that it is the base mark of the element as called by the tech panel plus/minus the average GOE of judges' scores as soon as at least three of them have entered GOEs for that element.
There might be some change to the average GOE at the end of the program when the rest of the judges' scores are added in. But if there's a big change, that would probably because the tech panel reviewed the element after the program was over and changed the call (for one or more elements).
There might be some change to the average GOE at the end of the program when the rest of the judges' scores are added in. But if there's a big change, that would probably because the tech panel reviewed the element after the program was over and changed the call (for one or more elements).
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- Mar 20, 2014
Hi! I'm a relatively new fs fan (riding that post-Olympic wave yo \m/) and had a question concerning jumps.
I really like Yulia and her skating, but while watching worlds I noticed her jumps were rather low compared to other skaters', and after spending some time on the forums learned this could be a concern for her rotations if she grows a lot during puberty. I was wondering if someone could explain why her jumps are so low. Is it something based on training/technique or is jump height dependent on a physical variable like height (I initially thought jump height was based on a skater's height, but Anna P. is only an inch taller than Yulia and gets more height...) or weight?
I really like Yulia and her skating, but while watching worlds I noticed her jumps were rather low compared to other skaters', and after spending some time on the forums learned this could be a concern for her rotations if she grows a lot during puberty. I was wondering if someone could explain why her jumps are so low. Is it something based on training/technique or is jump height dependent on a physical variable like height (I initially thought jump height was based on a skater's height, but Anna P. is only an inch taller than Yulia and gets more height...) or weight?
I think it's a combination of
anatomy: muscle fiber type composition (percentage of fast-twitch vs. slow-twitch fibers), strength-to-weight ratio,
leg length
and technique: knee bend, timing, use of the edges (and toe picks on toe jumps), use of the upper body to generate lift and rotation, etc.
Whatever the skater's maximum possible jump height is based on genetics and training, they can still choose to use different techniques to jump as high as possible or as far as possible and vary them depending on what they're doing next -- e.g., in jump combinations especially triple-triples, the advice is to aim for distance rather than height on the first jump, for maximum speed going into the second jump
And all skaters are likely to jump less high later in the program when their muscles are fatigued.
The effect that puberty has on jumping, primarily for girls, is mainly the decrease in strength-to-weight ratio.
Also as women's bodies become larger and more curvy, rotation isn't as efficient, so modest jump height that was sufficient for quick rotation with a small straight body type is not enough for a larger curvier body.
Some girls can improve their jump height as they mature through developing their muscle strength and technique. But not all body types will allow for enough improvement to compensate for natural increases in non-muscle weight and in less aerodynamic body shapes.
There are a lot of skaters who can't jump high enough to rotate triples at all. But we usually don't see them at the elite levels (except in ice dance)
anatomy: muscle fiber type composition (percentage of fast-twitch vs. slow-twitch fibers), strength-to-weight ratio,
leg length
and technique: knee bend, timing, use of the edges (and toe picks on toe jumps), use of the upper body to generate lift and rotation, etc.
Whatever the skater's maximum possible jump height is based on genetics and training, they can still choose to use different techniques to jump as high as possible or as far as possible and vary them depending on what they're doing next -- e.g., in jump combinations especially triple-triples, the advice is to aim for distance rather than height on the first jump, for maximum speed going into the second jump
And all skaters are likely to jump less high later in the program when their muscles are fatigued.
The effect that puberty has on jumping, primarily for girls, is mainly the decrease in strength-to-weight ratio.
Also as women's bodies become larger and more curvy, rotation isn't as efficient, so modest jump height that was sufficient for quick rotation with a small straight body type is not enough for a larger curvier body.
Some girls can improve their jump height as they mature through developing their muscle strength and technique. But not all body types will allow for enough improvement to compensate for natural increases in non-muscle weight and in less aerodynamic body shapes.
There are a lot of skaters who can't jump high enough to rotate triples at all. But we usually don't see them at the elite levels (except in ice dance)
That is quite interesting, to say the least. Thank you, gkelly.
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A nice film by NSF about the physics of jumps and spins
https://www.nsf.gov/news/special_reports/olympics/figureskating.jsp
The scientific paper resulting from this research
http://iceskatingresources.org/Triple&QuadJumps.html
A really nice work up by an engineer who is a Yu Na Kim fan
http://www.autostraddle.com/notes-f...kim-and-the-physics-of-figure-skating-219987/
https://www.nsf.gov/news/special_reports/olympics/figureskating.jsp
The scientific paper resulting from this research
http://iceskatingresources.org/Triple&QuadJumps.html
A really nice work up by an engineer who is a Yu Na Kim fan
http://www.autostraddle.com/notes-f...kim-and-the-physics-of-figure-skating-219987/
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Thank you guys!
Aw yeah, physics time
Aw yeah, physics time
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The research paper has training recommendations which include more focus on proper exercises for the arms. I found it very interesting. Btw,Mishin wrote a famous book on the biomechanics of jumps-some coaches get very, very technical. Others not so much.
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- Jan 19, 2014
for lack of better phrasing
how do female skaters keep their underwear from stretching or moving to avoid er, ungainly insights into their land of treasures? do they have special underwear? is it made of special fabric? do they need to get fitted for it? is there a secret anti-camel toe device sewn inside?
(i better not get an infraction for this question, i'm about to be banned as it is and the thread title says 'stupid questions' so you asked for it)
how do female skaters keep their underwear from stretching or moving to avoid er, ungainly insights into their land of treasures? do they have special underwear? is it made of special fabric? do they need to get fitted for it? is there a secret anti-camel toe device sewn inside?
(i better not get an infraction for this question, i'm about to be banned as it is and the thread title says 'stupid questions' so you asked for it)
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I'm confused!! While reading the ISU guidelines I again noticed that there are two columns for applying negative GOE. Column one is "Errors for which final GOE must be in the minuses" and column two is "Errors for which final GOE is not restricted". I mostly noticed that wrong edge calls, flutz and lips, are in the second not required to be negative column. Why then do people here insist that a flutz is required to be negative GOE? If this were true then wouldn't it be in the first column? I've noticed though on every edge call at least a -.30 or -.60 deduction is applied on the protocols this season. I've looked at a lot too and never found an edge call with positive GOE. What am I missing? Feeling...uh..stupid. Please fix me. Thanks
Here is the document I've been using: http://www.usfsa.org/content/2013-14 S&P Establishing GOE.pdf
Edit- I'll sneak another one in. Why do severe edge calls and unclear edge calls both on the protocols appear as an "e"? How are we supposed to know which one the judge considered it? Whe not "SE" and "e". Wouldn't that be more clear. There could be a 2pt difference in the final GOE. Plus one is required to be negative (severe) and the other isn't (unclear) . Seems a bit unclear to me, pun intended.
Here is the document I've been using: http://www.usfsa.org/content/2013-14 S&P Establishing GOE.pdf
Edit- I'll sneak another one in. Why do severe edge calls and unclear edge calls both on the protocols appear as an "e"? How are we supposed to know which one the judge considered it? Whe not "SE" and "e". Wouldn't that be more clear. There could be a 2pt difference in the final GOE. Plus one is required to be negative (severe) and the other isn't (unclear) . Seems a bit unclear to me, pun intended.
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I'm confused!! While reading the ISU guidelines I again noticed that there are two columns for applying negative GOE. Column one is "Errors for which final GOE must be in the minuses" and column two is "Errors for which final GOE is not restricted". I mostly noticed that wrong edge calls, flutz and lips, are in the second not required to be negative column. Why then do people here insist that a flutz is required to be negative GOE? If this were true then wouldn't it be in the first column? I've noticed though on every edge call at least a -.30 or -.60 deduction is applied on the protocols this season. I've looked at a lot too and never found an edge call with positive GOE. What am I missing? Feeling...uh..stupid. Please fix me. Thanks
Here is the document I've been using: http://www.usfsa.org/content/2013-14 S&P Establishing GOE.pdf
Edit- I'll sneak another one in. Why do severe edge calls and unclear edge calls both appear on the protocols appear as an "e" . How are we supposed to know which one the judge considered it? Whe not "SE" and "e". Wouldn't that be more clear. There could be a 2pt difference in the final GOE. Plus one is required to be negative (severe) and the other isn't (unclear) . Seems a bit unclear, pun intended.
I guess it's up to each judge. There used to be two different signs available to the technical panel, "e" and "!". One was supposed to be severe and obvious wrong edge and the other was questionable edge, to be interpreted by each judge. I don't know why they changed that -- I assume they wanted to give more discretion to the judges.
When you see a GOE score of -0.40, this typically means that after highest and lowest are dropped, 4 judges gave a -1 and three judges gave a 0 to the element. The zeros either thought that there were positive features that compensated for the (mild) error, or else they thought the take-off edge was OK despite the call.
If the error on take-off is so bad as to fall into the "severe" category, I suppose the idea is that the skater should not get full credit for the jump even if it is otherwise excellent, hence the "must have negative GOE" designation.
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