Random Figure Skating Questions | Page 12 | Golden Skate

Random Figure Skating Questions

HanDomi

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Hello, I hope you guys help me with some of my really dumb questions about PCS.

Like I don't get why some people have extremely high PCS, while some others have low PCS eventhough they are more fun to watch.

For example, I can understand why PChan always get high PCS because his skating is so smooth and he moves on the ice like water. I can get it why people say PChan's skating skills are superb.:yay:

I can see when people say someone's skating skills are not good, such as Denis Ten. I like him, but his moves always seem to be awkward to me.

But some other skaters, for example, like Daisuke. I think he also skates well, then why his PCS always seem to be so slow even though his performances were so good? :mad: so his lines and postures, ice coverage are not enough or something? If so then who are the ones to judges those components in the program? Like slow motion or something?

And another example, Yuzuru. The kid is young, so I can understand that he need to improve a lot. And his skating is not as smooth as PChan. Well, he is young so I think it's okay, he has time to work on it. But some people say the kid's skating skills are bad so I am confused. He might not be as good as PChan and Dai, because he is young. But to say his skating skills are bad? Is that too harsh?

I thinked that Daisuke PCS always was high :)
Chan have the highest PCS in the field.

About Hanyu.For me he is the best in terms of technical stuff in thie field. He was closing PCS on Chan. Chan should do more on the jumps execution, because when Hanyu is on he is unbeatable with the TES he can hit (even with mistakes )

Some performances are fun to watch but details make diffrence, and Chan and Hanyu are ahead of everybody.
 

Meoima

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
I thinked that Daisuke PCS always was high :)
Chan have the highest PCS in the field.

About Hanyu.For me he is the best in terms of technical stuff in thie field. He was closing PCS on Chan. Chan should do more on the jumps execution, because when Hanyu is on he is unbeatable with the TES he can hit (even with mistakes )

Some performances are fun to watch but details make diffrence, and Chan and Hanyu are ahead of everybody.

Then why some people say Hanyu's skating skills are bad? I can get it that his skating skills are not as good as PChan because PChan move smoothly than him. But to say the kid's skating skills are bad, then does that mean they gave the gold medal to a bad skater?
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Hello, I hope you guys help me with some of my really dumb questions about PCS.

Like I don't get why some people have extremely high PCS, while some others have low PCS eventhough they are more fun to watch.

"Fun to watch" is not itself a criterion for any of the program components.

You could probably find some criteria in the Performance/Execution, Choreography, and Interpretation components that skaters who are good at them are consistently more fun for you to watch, or for most people to watch. So they should get credit for doing those things well.

But if those are they only things they're good at they won't score very high overall. And skaters who are good at everything else can score high for those reasons, even if the "fun to watch" aspects are the few areas where they are weakest.

Some details of Skating Skills and Transitions are fun for me to watch but others may not notice at all.

I can see when people say someone's skating skills are not good, such as Denis Ten. I like him, but his moves always seem to be awkward to me.

I wouldn't say Ten's skating skills are not good. I would say they are good, but he's competing against other skaters who are better than just good.

But some other skaters, for example, like Daisuke. I think he also skates well, then why his PCS always seem to be so slow even though his performances were so good? :mad: so his lines and postures, ice coverage are not enough or something? If so then who are the ones to judges those components in the program? Like slow motion or something?

Takahashi does usually earn high PCS. Where they are not the highest, that's usually because someone else was better in more areas than he was.

And another example, Yuzuru. The kid is young, so I can understand that he need to improve a lot. And his skating is not as smooth as PChan. Well, he is young so I think it's okay, he has time to work on it. But some people say the kid's skating skills are bad so I am confused. He might not be as good as PChan and Dai, because he is young. But to say his skating skills are bad? Is that too harsh?

Aside from Chan, who is exceptional in this area, I think Hanyu's skating skills are among the best in the men's field these days. He seems to cover the ice with ease, effortlessly at good speed, and to be able to change direction at ease.
 

Meoima

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
"Fun to watch" is not itself a criterion for any of the program components.

You could probably find some criteria in the Performance/Execution, Choreography, and Interpretation components that skaters who are good at them are consistently more fun for you to watch, or for most people to watch. So they should get credit for doing those things well.

But if those are they only things they're good at they won't score very high overall. And skaters who are good at everything else can score high for those reasons, even if the "fun to watch" aspects are the few areas where they are weakest.

Some details of Skating Skills and Transitions are fun for me to watch but others may not notice at all.

Thank you very much. Then would you please explain to me about lines and postures? Like some people say "her lines are bad" but I don't understand why it's bad, or about the postures. Some of the top skaters have postures that I don't find eye-candy, but still they are top of the top. Sometimes I am so confused about the whole "skating skills" definition.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Program Component Explanations

Lines and posture would primarily be reflected in the Performance/Execution component, Carriage and Clarity of movement criteria. They wouldn't officially have much impact on other components.

But if a skater is good in those areas and makes everything they do look good, it will probably have a positive effect on how judges view other aspects of their skating, such as the "balance" portion of Skating Skills.

And good alignment and stretch can also help the grades of executions -- good positions on spins and jump landings, for example, and spirals in the ladies' Choreo sequence. And many pair moves.

Skating fans who are also fans of ballet, ballroom dance, gymnastics, etc. (or judges who are also well versed in those fields -- and definitely some TV commentators such as Dick Button) may put a lot of weight on line and posture and consider them some of the most important determinants of what makes "good" skating.

But a skater who is great at the interaction of blades and ice, but only average or below-average at line and posture, can also score well.

So you can get disagreements among those who prefer great lines with OK skating (e.g., Sasha Cohen) vs. those who prefer stronger skating and weaker posture and body line (Irina Slutskaya).

The Skating Skills criteria are:
-Balance, rhythmic knee action, and precision of foot placement
-Flow and effortless glide
Rhythm, strength, clean strokes, and an efficient use of lean create a steady run to the blade and an ease of transfer of weight resulting in seemingly effortless power and acceleration.
-Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, and turns
The skater should demonstrate clean and controlled curves, deep edges, and steps.
-Varied use of power/energy, speed, and acceleration
Variety is the gradation – some of which may be subtle
-Multi directional skating
Includes all direction of skating: forward and backward, clockwise and counterclockwise including rotation in both directions.
-Mastery of one foot skating
No over use of skating on two feet.

Do you have specific questions?
 

Meoima

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
Program Component Explanations

Lines and posture would primarily be reflected in the Performance/Execution component, Carriage and Clarity of movement criteria. They wouldn't officially have much impact on other components.

But if a skater is good in those areas and makes everything they do look good, it will probably have a positive effect on how judges view other aspects of their skating, such as the "balance" portion of Skating Skills.

And good alignment and stretch can also help the grades of executions -- good positions on spins and jump landings, for example, and spirals in the ladies' Choreo sequence. And many pair moves.

Skating fans who are also fans of ballet, ballroom dance, gymnastics, etc. (or judges who are also well versed in those fields -- and definitely some TV commentators such as Dick Button) may put a lot of weight on line and posture and consider them some of the most important determinants of what makes "good" skating.

But a skater who is great at the interaction of blades and ice, but only average or below-average at line and posture, can also score well.

So you can get disagreements among those who prefer great lines with OK skating (e.g., Sasha Cohen) vs. those who prefer stronger skating and weaker posture and body line (Irina Slutskaya).

The Skating Skills criteria are:

Do you have specific questions?

Thank you so much for your explanation. Would you please give me some example (image/gif or video) about good/bad line body and good/weak posture?

When some people say a certain skater has a weak body line, I don't understand how much it is different from posture? Or they are the same?
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
One caveat. Not only do the PCS components for ice dance have different names and descriptions. They are determined differently.

ISU Communication 1677 describes the process. We also have a thread going through the document in detail with examples.
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?36573-Ice-Dancing-PCS-Rules-2011-2012

In short, ISU 1677 defines 1.0 , 2.0, 3.0, 4.0, etc. brackets, with lists of qualities that a team should show to qualify for a bracket. A team must only meet the majority of the items to qualify for a given bracket. Note that this process compares teams with a standard, not with each other.

So if fictional team A&B competes with C&D, one may satisfy items 1,2,3 and 4 of a list of seven items for a component and the other might meet items 2,5,6, and 7. Both would qualify for, say as an example, the 9.0 to 10.0 bracket. Note because they excel at different items, it might not be obvious to a fan that they belong in the same bracket. Each judge decides the bracket for themselves, and then decides whether to give each team 9.0, 9.25, 9.50, 9.75, or 10.0, based on all the items in the bracket, and how well they think each team did.

I have wondered why singles is not handled the same way.
 

ILuvYuna

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Note because they excel at different items, it might not be obvious to a fan that they belong in the same bracket. Each judge decides the bracket for themselves, and then decides whether to give each team 9.0, 9.25, 9.50, 9.75, or 10.0, based on all the items in the bracket, and how well they think each team did.

I have wondered why singles is not handled the same way.

This sounds a little bit like what I'm working on for singles. I'm trying to come up with criteria, say for SS, that isolates different things that the judges need to look for, and then gives each criteria a certain weight of the total 10.00 score. Using the current criteria as an example:

A. [1.5] Balance, rhythmic knee action, and precision of foot placement
B. [2.0] Flow and effortless glide
C. [2.0] Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, and turns
D. [2.0] Varied use of power/energy, speed, and acceleration
E. [1.5] Multi directional skating
F. [1.0] Mastery of one foot skating


I would also break up the increments from 1/4 to 1/10.

The result would be similar to what you're saying in that two skaters could end up with the same score, by excelling at different items/criteria. (***eta - I realize this is just as true now :laugh: I guess what there is to gain from doing it this way is that the judging would be more accountable, because the scores would be itemized on the pcs portion of the protocol - A.B.C. etc, - so if a skater who had unsure edges and bad flow got perfect marks on those items, the judge would have to explain it or be found incompetent or something. Plus, casual fans who look up the protocols can readily understand why two skaters who may be very different, still got the same score.)


While we're on this topic, I wanted to ask a quesiton about flow - I've finally gotten the difference between flow and speed (speed has to do with the rate at which they cover distance across the ice, but flow has to do with the smooth continuity of the body's movement across the ice. You can skate slowly with flow, and there are ways to generate speed that do not have flow).

Also, gkelly explained very well that sometimes your edges can be a little wobbly and not affect your flow, so my understanding now is that flow is more about how your whole body carries across the ice, rather than the continuous flow of the blade across the ice, is that right? If so, I can see why Dick Button et al feel that things like posture and alignment have a lot to do with good skating skills (it seems like you need to have good posture, alignment, and even weight distribution in order to flow properly)

Also, does "steady run of the blade" refer to both sureness and continuous flow of the blade on the ice? Thank you (and thank you gkelly for those videos :agree: I've been going through them, there are still some things that they don't explain very well, tho).
 

Meoima

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
Can I ask who are the commentators of British Eurosport? I've always like them, much better than NBC but I could not find their names. Is Robin Cousins one of them? Thank you very much.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
I think that if such a PCS scheme as is used for dance were in use for singles that Mao should have won the Olympics FS in Sochi, since judges would not be worried about saving grades for the last group as much.

And I think that would be a correct result. Also, judges might have thought twice before jacking Adelina's PCS into a significantly higher bracket than at Europeans, since the bracket standard is a little more, if not wholly, objective.

However, you will definitely get fan arguments, as you do between dance fans, because skaters with equal PCS scores may have different but approximately equal skill sets. But it would be easier to explain PCS results than it is now.

In any case, you might like to check out ISU Communication 1677.0
 
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dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Can I ask who are the commentators of British Eurosport? I've always like them, much better than NBC but I could not find their names. Is Robin Cousins one of them? Thank you very much.

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?40974-Eurosport-Commentary-Team

The usual British Eurosport group are Simon Reed, Chris Howarth, and Nicky Slater.

BBC has Robin Cousins.

Eurosport did not have Olympic coverage. If you had the international feed, the commentators were Chris Howarth and Belinda Noonan.
 

Meoima

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?40974-Eurosport-Commentary-Team

The usual British Eurosport group are Simon Reed, Chris Howarth, and Nicky Slater.

BBC has Robin Cousins.

Eurosport did not have Olympic coverage. If you had the international feed, the commentators were Chris Howarth and Belinda Noonan.

Thank you so much. I love ESP commentators so much. As for Robin Cousins, would you please give me a link of his commentary? I have never heard him comment before.
 

Meoima

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
Hello, it's me again. I am asking about "edge". Since I am not an English native speaker, sometimes I get confused by the terms people are using here. Like when someone say "It's not an edge" or "Edge quality"... I find myself lost.

Please help me with this term, thank you very much.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
From my post in the Edges and Turns thread in the Reference section:

Figure skating blades are sharpened with two edges, one toward the inside side of the foot (inside edge) and one toward the outside of the foot (outside edge) with a narrow groove running between the two edges. Most figure skating skills are based on gliding forward or backward on one edge at a time, which produces a curved movement over the ice. These curves, and the curved tracings that the blades carve into the ice itself, are also referred to as “edges.”

If both sides of the blade are on the ice at the same time, that's called a "flat" and the skate travels in a straight line instead of a curve.

Figure skating is all about the curves.
 
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