Random Figure Skating Questions

golden411 said:

LOL, actually, I never mentioned parking tickets above. I was referring to theater tickets, concert tickets, that kind of thing. Not that it matters.

Click to expand...

Oops! Sorry. My mis-understanding. When you said "ticket", I thought you were talking about parking tickets and traffic wardens!

We don't really have ticket attendants that escort you to your seat. Our venues are the sort of size that, after you leave the front desk, it is pretty obvious where you go! If there are multiple doors, they might have somebody there just to make sure that you go in the most convenient way. But, generally not. I suppose the owners of the venues don't want to go to the expense of employing extra people!

That said, when there are big concerts being held at the Odyssey, I would expect that they would have lots of ticket attendants. But, I haven't been to any concerts there, so I don't know. (I did go to see an ice hockey match when it first opened, and to see the Harlem Globetrotters the following summer. But, it was that long ago that I can't remember if there were ticket attendants).

golden411 said:

BUT ... I am old enough to remember the phrase "meter maid" very well.
IIIRC, it was used just as commonly as "stewardess" -- before both expressions died out because of the rise of gender equality and political correctness.

Click to expand...

golden411 said:

- I could be wrong, but I do not believe it was a regionalism. I grew up in the southern U.S.; in my teens, I moved to the northeast. I could swear that I remember both southerners and native New Yorkers using the phrase.

Click to expand...

I'll be honest, "Lovely Rita" is the only time I've ever heard the phrase "meter maid". So, thank you for shedding some light on it.

Personally, although I do tend to still use the traditional terms, I do not have a problem with neutral terms like "flight attendants". It is when a term that is specifically male (e.g. "chairman") is used for females that really gets to me. I tend to be a real stickler when it comes to issues of grammar, and doing this is completely wrong gramatically.

Back to meter maids:

golden411 said:

- LOL, I never knew :hopelessness: that it was in a Beatles song.

Click to expand...

No, even though it is on their best known album, it's not one of their better known songs.

golden411 said:

Don't get me wrong: I think it is absolutely fine that these phrases have died out. But the reality is that there was a time when "flight attendants" were virtually all female, and their occupation was known as "stewardess." [When men first started being employed for the positions, there was a phase (at least within my family) of awkwardly saying such things as, "The male stewardess said they didn't have 7-Up" -- because it seemed less odd than the term "steward" in the context of the airline role (although "steward" was/is a familiar word from other contexts). "Flight attendant" eventually gained wide usage as the unisex term.]

Click to expand...

I'm stupid. I should have thought of that as one of my examples!

By the way, over this side of the Atlantic, "air hostess" was a more popular term than "air stewardess". But, other than that, the story is the same. However, people from Northern Ireland tend to have a cheeky streak, so it was not unusual for the male attendants to be called "air hostesses"... without making any distinction!!!

golden411 said:

The discussion of "my girl" is very interesting, but I will try not to get involved in that one.

But will quickly mention that one of my pet peeves re American usage is that "girlfriend" and "boyfriend" are the most common words for the person whom someone is dating ... no matter how old or young the people are. And they are perfectly neutral words.
It would be strange for a 50-yr-old man to say, "I met a new girl" -- meaning a potential romantic interest of similar age.
But if they started dating on a regular basis, it would be perfectly normal (although I don't like it) for him to say, "I met my girlfriend six months ago."

Click to expand...

Yeah, I can see using girlfriend/boyfriend in that context raising eyebrows. But, they are still probably the best terms out of a bad bunch of options. The alternative would be "partner". And, a lot of people associate the word "partner" with a gay relationship. So, if a heterosexual person uses it to describe their other half, it could lead to some MAJOR mis-understandings!

CaroLiza_fan

CaroLiza_fan said:

Yeah, I can see using girlfriend/boyfriend in that context raising eyebrows. But, they are still probably the best terms out of a bad bunch of options. The alternative would be "partner". And, a lot of people associate the word "partner" with a gay relationship. So, if a heterosexual person uses it to describe their other half, it could lead to some MAJOR mis-understandings!

CaroLiza_fan

Click to expand...

Goodness, how could we survive?!

I tend to think of partner as a long-established relationship, not specifically a gay one. Probably one where the people live together and have for a while, with their lives very entwined. However, I would use whatever the person themselves uses in specific cases.

A lot of the time, 'chair' is used as a gender neutral term.

CaroLiza_fan said:

Oops! Sorry. My mis-understanding. When you said "ticket", I thought you were talking about parking tickets and traffic wardens!

We don't really have ticket attendants that escort you to your seat. Our venues are the sort of size that, after you leave the front desk, it is pretty obvious where you go! If there are multiple doors, they might have somebody there just to make sure that you go in the most convenient way. But, generally not. I suppose the owners of the venues don't want to go to the expense of employing extra people!

That said, when there are big concerts being held at the Odyssey, I would expect that they would have lots of ticket attendants. But, I haven't been to any concerts there, so I don't know. (I did go to see an ice hockey match when it first opened, and to see the Harlem Globetrotters the following summer. But, it was that long ago that I can't remember if there were ticket attendants). ...

Click to expand...

Don't mean to beat the ticket thing to death, but don't want to leave you with the wrong impression about American practices either.

I was not talking about people who escort you to your seat -- in this day and age, they are rare in the U.S. as well, I would say. [But some Broadway theaters still do have what we call ushers (both female and male ).]

I was referring to "ticket ladies" or "ticket guys" who work at the windows/counters where tickets are sold at movie theaters, concert venues, etc. -- for people who have not bought tix in advance. The "Will Call" window/counter typically would be nearby.
Museums, amusement parks, sports stadiums, etc., would have similar counters for selling tickets.

(At places without automatic turnstiles, we also have people who check tickets as ticketholders are entering the venue. Referring to them, I might also say that the "ticket lady" or the "ticket guy" was very efficient.)

golden411 said:

Don't mean to beat the ticket thing to death, but don't want to leave you with the wrong impression about American practices either.

I was not talking about people who escort you to your seat -- in this day and age, they are rare in the U.S. as well, I would say. [But some Broadway theaters still do have what we call ushers (both female and male ).]

I was referring to "ticket ladies" or "ticket guys" who work at the windows/counters where tickets are sold at movie theaters, concert venues, etc. -- for people who have not bought tix in advance. The "Will Call" window/counter typically would nearby.
Museums, amusement parks, sports stadiums, etc., would have similar counters for selling tickets.

(At places without automatic turnstiles, we also have people who check tickets as ticketholders are entering the venue. Referring to them, I might also say that the "ticket lady" or the "ticket guy" was very efficient.)

Click to expand...

Oh, don't worry about it. I frequently find myself having to continuously refine my explanations as to what I mean as well!

So, basically, we are both in the same boat when it comes the personnel at venues!

I think the confusion is that we never would have thought of describing the people at the ticket desk as "attendants". I don't know about anybody else, but I tend to think of an "attendant" as somebody who is standing up and wandering around while assisting people. Like the "flight attendant" we discussed earlier. Not somebody who is sitting behind a desk.

But, that is just symantics.

A couple of things I forgot to mention with regards the final topic in my last comment. I am not one of those people that automatically thinks "gay" when somebody uses the term "partner". But, I know plenty of people that do. So, given the ambiguity over how people interpret the term "partner", I do tend to prefer the use of "girlfriend" and "boyfriend", regardless of the age of the individuals involved.

CaroLiza_fan

Meter maids, though…those greatly feared ladies who go about on scooters handing out parking tickets -- I have never heard them called anything else. I always thought that is just the official designation for that job. I think even a male doing that job would be a meter maid. (Is the word "maid" even used in American English any more, except in this way, to designate a vocation, like someone who cleans houses for a living?)

Here is a vocation that has disappeared in the Internet age. A "Story Lady," meaning a teenage girl who volunteers to read to young children at the public library after school. (I don't know why, but boys never volunteered for such service -- reading is for sissies, I guess. Anyway, as i remember it, those story ladies shore were purty.)

Mathman said:

(Is the word "maid" even used in American English any more, except in this way, to designate a vocation, like someone who cleans houses for a living?)

Click to expand...

I suspect you haven't seen the little Molly Maid cars driving around Michigan? (Although they DO clean houses for a living, so I guess you're on point there.)

CaroLiza_fan said:

... I think the confusion is that we never would have thought of describing the people at the ticket desk as "attendants" ....

Click to expand...

My last post on the "ticket tangent" :

Mind you, "ticket lady" and "ticket guy" certainly are not official titles -- just examples of my casual (but not atypical, I think??) usage of "lady" and "guy."


For instance, if I had a neighbor whose name I didn't even know, but who had two dogs as constant companions, I might say to my roommate, "The dog lady [or the dog guy] was wearing some cool sneakers today."
[Another example of my personal quirk :hopelessness: that was my original point is that I would never say "dog gal." ]

[p.s. And aw shucks, the neighbor lady's dogs always look so purty with their sparkly collars .]

CaroLiza_fan said:

Boys, but this has turned into a fascinating conversation!

Just wanted to throw in what the situation is on this side of the Atlantic.


...

The complicating factor is political correctness. Even though it is grammatically correct, it is not seen as politically correct to use gender specific terms like "actress", "waitress", "moyoress", "chairwoman", "ombudswoman", etc. Instead, the politically correct (but gramatically incorrect) thing to do is to use the male term, in these cases "actor", "waiter", "mayor", "chairman", "ombudsman". Which I find very strange, because if I was a woman, I would feel insulted if somebody referred to me by a male term such as "actor". My inference from this would be "are you saying I look like a man?!"

To further complicate matters, even some of the male terms are getting politically incorrect, and are getting replaced by more neutral terms. "Bin man" has been replaced by "refuge collector". "Fireman" has been replaced by "fire fighter". "Policeman" (and "policewoman", for that matter) has been replaced by "police officer".

That said, all the traditional terms mentioned in the past 2 paragraphs are still pretty much universally used! It is just the smallest minority (i.e. politicians, bureaucrats, etc. that appear on TV) that use the politically correct terms.
....

Click to expand...

BTW, in the US, you do not want to address any African American male as "boy," no matter what his age is, if you are not African American yourself. Girl is not much better to use to an African American female. Both had an implication of servant or slave at best, and at worst, the n word.
http://www.secondclassjustice.com/?p=69
Boy is a legally a racial slur. Girl not so much.

I detest the term "political correctness." The issue is courtesy. Feelings are facts. A person gets to choose what language offends them. Once you are (I hope politely) informed by a person that they find a given word offensive, it is simple courtesy not to call them by that term. We do not get to choose what offends others; they get to choose. The issue is not politics, but politeness, and the correct, most polite, term to use is the one that makes the whole audience most comfortable, as much as is possible.

The issue of what to call females is similarly set about with pitfalls, since different female people of differing ages and regions find different usages cringe-worthy. Even skating is not immune from differences. In the US, Novice and above female skaters are Ladies, but in Canada they are all Women.

When I was young, it was explicitly taught in schools that females were inferior, second class humans. Consequently, gender neutral language was a definite step up to me, and having a term like chairman or mayor applied to me would never have bothered me.

But, The one thing I hate to be called is Hun or Honey. Them's fightin' words. I am not That Old.

dorispulaski said:

BTW, in the US, you do not want to address any African American male as "boy," no matter what his age is, if you are not African American yourself. Girl is not much better to use to an African American female. Both had an implication of servant or slave at best, and at worst, the n word.
http://www.secondclassjustice.com/?p=69
Boy is a legally a racial slur. Girl not so much.

I detest the term "political correctness." The issue is courtesy. Feelings are facts. A person gets to choose what language offends them. Once you are (I hope politely) informed by a person that they find a given word offensive, it is simple courtesy not to call them by that term. We do not get to choose what offends others; they get to choose. The issue is not politics, but politeness, and the correct, most polite, term to use is the one that makes the wholeaudience most comfortable, as much as is possible.

The issue of what to call females is similarly set about with pitfalls, since different female people of differing ages and regions find different usages cringe-worthy. Even skating is not immune from differences. In the US, Novice and above female skaters are Ladies, but in Canada they are all Women.

When I was young, it was explicitly taught in schools that females were inferior, second class humans. Consequently, gender neutral language was a definite step up to me, and having a term like chairman or mayor applied to me would never have bothered me.

But, The one thing I hate to be called is Hun or Honey. Them's fightin' words. I am not That Old.

Click to expand...

:thumbsup: Me too.

dorispulaski said:

... I detest the term "political correctness." The issue is courtesy. ...

Click to expand...

But like it or not, the phenomenon of political correctness does exist and is not synonymous with courtesy.
In fact, I believe the whole point of the term "political correctness" is to make a distinction from the heartfelt instinct of sincere courtesy.

A personal example that I have cited before on GS is that I was and still am fine with being referred to as Oriental. (I am U.S.-born, but have Asian blood.)
But for some reason, it has become PC to avoid saying "Oriental." Such avoidance is doing me no favor. Such avoidance would not be my personal choice.

When I referred above to political correctness, I was referring to the reality of political correctness.
Was not saying that I believe political correctness always has changed social discourse for the better. But I would say that it has indeed changed social discourse, whether one agrees with it as a motivation or not.

Not to start a whole 'nother discussion, but I am perplexed at how "thug" apparently has become a racially-sensitive word in the U.S.
To me, a "thug" could be white, black, Oriental , mixed-race, you name it.

---

dorispulaski said:

But, The one thing I hate to be called is Hun or Honey. Them's fightin' words. I am not That Old.

Click to expand...

I'm not bothered much as far as gender-specific terminology, but the one thing I dislike being called is 'dude'. Not so much in the vein of "Are you a dude?" (via the internet, which is fine, even if mildly annoying...)

More like, "What's up, dude?" Or, "This dude over here..." Just sounds condescending to my ears, and I picture a teenage stoner from a bad movie.

I'm reminded of when I took my then-11-year-old niece to a performance of Oklahoma! a few years ago. Afterward I asked her what was her favorite part, and her answer was "The peddlar dude."

dorispulaski said:

But, the one thing I hate to be called is Hun or Honey. Them's fightin' words. I am not That Old.

Click to expand...

Waitresses call me that all the time. "Another cup of coffee, Hun?"

I detest the term "political correctness." The issue is courtesy. Feelings are facts. A person gets to choose what language offends them. Once you are (I hope politely) informed by a person that they find a given word offensive, it is simple courtesy not to call them by that term.

Click to expand...

I agree 100%.

But I think that "political correctness" means that you ought to have common sense enough to speak courteously, but since you don't, society will lean on you a little to make you do better.

Not to start a whole 'nother discussion, but I am perplexed at how "thug" apparently has become a racially-sensitive word in the U.S.

Click to expand...

I think it comes from gansta rap.

But yes, that's "another discussion altogether."

golden411 said:

But like it or not, the phenomenon of political correctness does exist and is not synonymous with courtesy.
In fact, I believe the whole point of the term "political correctness" is to make a distinction from the heartfelt instinct of sincere courtesy.

Click to expand...

golden411 said:

When I referred above to political correctness, I was referring to the reality of political correctness.
Was not saying that I believe political correctness always has changed social discourse for the better. But I would say that it has indeed changed social discourse, whether one agrees with it as a motivation or not.

Click to expand...

golden411 said:

Not to start a whole 'nother discussion, but I am perplexed at how "thug" apparently has become a racially-sensitive word in the U.S.
To me, a "thug" could be white, black, Oriental , mixed-race, you name it.

---

ETA, I hope it goes without saying that I am 100000% in favor of courtesy.
But I don't believe in pretending that political correctness (which is something else) does not exist.​

Click to expand...

Agree with you on all those points! :agree:

golden411 said:

A personal example that I have cited before on GS is that I was and still am fine with being referred to as Oriental. (I am U.S.-born, but have Asian blood.)
But for some reason, it has become PC to avoid saying "Oriental." Such avoidance is doing me no favor. Such avoidance would not be my personal choice.

Click to expand...

Wow! I never realised that you were Oriental. And I never realised that the term was now seen as being out of favour!

So, have you any idea why that is? Because I don't!

The only thing I can think of is that it might have something to do with the fact that the term "the Orient" did not originally refer to the Far East. It originally referred to what we know as the Middle East. Hence the phrase "Ex Oriente Lux" ("Light out of the Orient"), which is used to refer to the spread of farming out of the Middle East, marking the start of the Neolithic.

See, the archaeologist in me is coming out!

CaroLiza_fan

golden411, I do not detest the effort to make this a more polite world, nor do I deny that there has been a concerted effort to make it so.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=jl-mXwLH0JkC&hl=en

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness

But "Political correctness" was a term chosen in the 1990's by conservative writers to pejoratively characterise such efforts, smearing them as as political pandering and a mere ploy, or, alternatively, the cause of over-sensitive, even childish, people.

And I categorically reject that view.

When I see people using the term, so often they are making one of these points:

• I have a free speech right to call you anything I please. How dare you be offended!
• Ethnic slurs, racial slurs, and ethnic jokes and racial jokes are all in good fun. You are over-sensitive.
• I am not offended, so you shouldn't be offended.
• You don't really care about this term. You are just politically pandering to someone or other. So I will call Japanese people the J slur, black people the n slur, and Polish people Polacks, and tell you a joke the punch line of which is how ridiculously stupid Polish people are, just to "prove" my point..

And those are the arguments I am rejecting.

And as to thug, have you been following the pro-police arguments lately? The argument goes that most if not all black people must be assumed to be "thugs", so any police violence toward, mistreatment of and discourtesy to them is justified. Even when you are talking about a 12 year old boy playing in a park, a Coast Guard veteran with a defective tail light, or a young college-educated woman who forgot to use her signal light when she changed lanes.

So many people feel that thug is code for the n word, a label justifying racial bias.

Yes, the word thug arose from a group of people in India, but it is also true that that is not how the word is being used today. Language is a living thing. And I would think that anyone would be justified at objecting to being called a thug. Check your local paper. In mine "thugs" are always people of color. Perhaps not so in yours.

:thumbsup: to the whole of Doris' post.

I believe, CaroLiza_fan, that the main objections to the word oriental are that it stems from an Eurocentric view of the world where people and places were described in relation to Europe. It would be better to describe people as where they are from- continent or nation- rather than where they are in relation to some perceived 'norm'; to do otherwise means that people of different cultures are always the 'other' (see Edward Said's Orientalism). Secondly, the term has often historically been used to exoticise and even fetishise people of Asian descent.

dorispulaski said:

... But "Political correctness" was a term chosen in the 1990's by conservative writers to pejoratively characterise such efforts, smearing them as as political pandering and a mere ploy, or, alternatively, the cause of over-sensitive, even childish, people. ...

... So many people feel that thug is code for the n word, a label justifying racial bias.

Yes, the word thug arose from a group of people in India, but it is also true that that is not how the word is being used today. Language is a living thing. And I would think that anyone would be justified at objecting to being called a thug. Check your local paper. In mine "thugs" are always people of color. Perhaps not so in yours.

Click to expand...

(1) What puzzles me is that you seem to be assuming that any use of the words "political correctness" is inherent support for political correctness.
In my experience, the exact opposite is true.
In other words, I think that most people who use the words "political correctness" are doing so in the context of expressing their dislike for the farce of political correctness run amok.
(Which, again, is not to say that they dislike courtesy.)

(2) The very reason that I brought up the word "thug" is that it has been in the news so much. So no, in this case, I have not been living under a rock.

What I am saying:

Somehow a word that up until recently (AFAIK) did not refer to any particular race now carries the connotation of a racial slur.
My opinion is that it seems to be a chicken-and-egg situation as to how what not so long ago used to be a non-racial word came to carry the connotation of a racial slur. There is plenty of "blame" to go around for the change in connotation, IMO. YMMV.

I go back to my example of Oriental. I am Oriental, and the word remains non-offensive to me.
But some other Asian-Americans apparently made it their business to convince the world that the word had sufficient negative connotation that it should be taboo. Another chicken-and-egg situation, I would say. Insisting that a word has a negative connotation (a connotation that is not felt by everyone who is called by the same word) only will worsen any existing negative connotation.

I will leave it there. Did not and do not want to get into an extended debate.

Will close by assuring you that I am not in favor of police brutality, lest anyone wonder.
And I am not in favor of racism or using racial slurs.

---

But golden, the whole point is the fact that Oriental does not bother you, does not mean that other people cannot be bothered by it. Clearly, they are. They get to pick what bothers them. I don't. And you don't either.

If someone asks you to refrain from its use in your presence, I hope you will consider not using it.

There is nothing "amok" or "political" about that.
Just politeness.

I agree that if someone were to ask me to politely not use a term they found offensive I would do so and apologetically non the less. In fact when I turned nineteen I was dating someone who was rather religious and she completely eliminated my use of the phrase GD. As a non church going Christian I just never found offense in that particular phrase myself. She really did not like it and constantly brought to my attention how hurtful and disrespectful it is to serious believers. I've since become thankful to her for breaking me of this habit purely and simply because it taught me a lot in terms of being aware of how others feel. I've since convinced several non religious souls to think twice out of respect for those who believe before using such a phrase. IMO its just polite and considerate.

Anyway....I find it a tad funny that I went to the "Oriental Express"today for kung pao chicken. This topic came up in Liza's thread and Sandpiper who is Asian did not find offense in the term similar to Golden. I was raised that that term is non offense when referring to items like spices, foods, tea, etc.... but was improper to describe people. Until GS I had no idea it was considered a slur or had negative connotation to it

It used to be slightly wrong to say that someone is a Jew. But OK to say that the person in question is Jewish. (I don't know if this is still true or not.) I always guessed that the reason might be that people can attach unflattering adjectives to the noun ("conniving Jew") and after a while those objectionable adjectives start to tarnish the noun that they accompany. (?)

I am not offended, so you shouldn't be offended.

Click to expand...

Of course, if your words do cause distress for others, you can always "apologize" by saying, "I'm sorry you took offense." :yes: