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Thread: Stupid Questions Thread

  1. #271
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    What I have heard is that it is the base mark of the element as called by the tech panel plus/minus the average GOE of judges' scores as soon as at least three of them have entered GOEs for that element.

    There might be some change to the average GOE at the end of the program when the rest of the judges' scores are added in. But if there's a big change, that would probably because the tech panel reviewed the element after the program was over and changed the call (for one or more elements).

  2. #272
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    Hi! I'm a relatively new fs fan (riding that post-Olympic wave yo \m/) and had a question concerning jumps.

    I really like Yulia and her skating, but while watching worlds I noticed her jumps were rather low compared to other skaters', and after spending some time on the forums learned this could be a concern for her rotations if she grows a lot during puberty. I was wondering if someone could explain why her jumps are so low. Is it something based on training/technique or is jump height dependent on a physical variable like height (I initially thought jump height was based on a skater's height, but Anna P. is only an inch taller than Yulia and gets more height...) or weight?

  3. #273
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    I think it's a combination of

    anatomy: muscle fiber type composition (percentage of fast-twitch vs. slow-twitch fibers), strength-to-weight ratio,
    leg length

    and technique: knee bend, timing, use of the edges (and toe picks on toe jumps), use of the upper body to generate lift and rotation, etc.

    Whatever the skater's maximum possible jump height is based on genetics and training, they can still choose to use different techniques to jump as high as possible or as far as possible and vary them depending on what they're doing next -- e.g., in jump combinations especially triple-triples, the advice is to aim for distance rather than height on the first jump, for maximum speed going into the second jump

    And all skaters are likely to jump less high later in the program when their muscles are fatigued.

    The effect that puberty has on jumping, primarily for girls, is mainly the decrease in strength-to-weight ratio.
    Also as women's bodies become larger and more curvy, rotation isn't as efficient, so modest jump height that was sufficient for quick rotation with a small straight body type is not enough for a larger curvier body.

    Some girls can improve their jump height as they mature through developing their muscle strength and technique. But not all body types will allow for enough improvement to compensate for natural increases in non-muscle weight and in less aerodynamic body shapes.

    There are a lot of skaters who can't jump high enough to rotate triples at all. But we usually don't see them at the elite levels (except in ice dance)

  4. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    What I have heard is that it is the base mark of the element as called by the tech panel plus/minus the average GOE of judges' scores as soon as at least three of them have entered GOEs for that element.

    There might be some change to the average GOE at the end of the program when the rest of the judges' scores are added in. But if there's a big change, that would probably because the tech panel reviewed the element after the program was over and changed the call (for one or more elements).
    That is quite interesting, to say the least. Thank you, gkelly.

  5. #275
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    A nice film by NSF about the physics of jumps and spins
    https://www.nsf.gov/news/special_rep...ureskating.jsp

    The scientific paper resulting from this research
    http://iceskatingresources.org/Triple&QuadJumps.html

    A really nice work up by an engineer who is a Yu Na Kim fan
    http://www.autostraddle.com/notes-fr...kating-219987/
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 04-01-2014 at 01:53 PM.

  6. #276
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    Thank you guys!

    Aw yeah, physics time

  7. #277
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    The research paper has training recommendations which include more focus on proper exercises for the arms. I found it very interesting. Btw,Mishin wrote a famous book on the biomechanics of jumps-some coaches get very, very technical. Others not so much.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 04-02-2014 at 01:11 AM.

  8. #278
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    for lack of better phrasing

    how do female skaters keep their underwear from stretching or moving to avoid er, ungainly insights into their land of treasures? do they have special underwear? is it made of special fabric? do they need to get fitted for it? is there a secret anti-camel toe device sewn inside?

    (i better not get an infraction for this question, i'm about to be banned as it is and the thread title says 'stupid questions' so you asked for it)

  9. #279
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    I'm confused!! While reading the ISU guidelines I again noticed that there are two columns for applying negative GOE. Column one is "Errors for which final GOE must be in the minuses" and column two is "Errors for which final GOE is not restricted". I mostly noticed that wrong edge calls, flutz and lips, are in the second not required to be negative column. Why then do people here insist that a flutz is required to be negative GOE? If this were true then wouldn't it be in the first column? I've noticed though on every edge call at least a -.30 or -.60 deduction is applied on the protocols this season. I've looked at a lot too and never found an edge call with positive GOE. What am I missing? Feeling...uh..stupid. Please fix me. Thanks

    Here is the document I've been using: http://www.usfsa.org/content/2013-14...hing%20GOE.pdf

    Edit- I'll sneak another one in. Why do severe edge calls and unclear edge calls both on the protocols appear as an "e"? How are we supposed to know which one the judge considered it? Whe not "SE" and "e". Wouldn't that be more clear. There could be a 2pt difference in the final GOE. Plus one is required to be negative (severe) and the other isn't (unclear) . Seems a bit unclear to me, pun intended.

  10. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    I'm confused!! While reading the ISU guidelines I again noticed that there are two columns for applying negative GOE. Column one is "Errors for which final GOE must be in the minuses" and column two is "Errors for which final GOE is not restricted". I mostly noticed that wrong edge calls, flutz and lips, are in the second not required to be negative column. Why then do people here insist that a flutz is required to be negative GOE? If this were true then wouldn't it be in the first column? I've noticed though on every edge call at least a -.30 or -.60 deduction is applied on the protocols this season. I've looked at a lot too and never found an edge call with positive GOE. What am I missing? Feeling...uh..stupid. Please fix me. Thanks

    Here is the document I've been using: http://www.usfsa.org/content/2013-14...hing%20GOE.pdf

    Edit- I'll sneak another one in. Why do severe edge calls and unclear edge calls both appear on the protocols appear as an "e" . How are we supposed to know which one the judge considered it? Whe not "SE" and "e". Wouldn't that be more clear. There could be a 2pt difference in the final GOE. Plus one is required to be negative (severe) and the other isn't (unclear) . Seems a bit unclear, pun intended.
    I guess it's up to each judge. There used to be two different signs available to the technical panel, "e" and "!". One was supposed to be severe and obvious wrong edge and the other was questionable edge, to be interpreted by each judge. I don't know why they changed that -- I assume they wanted to give more discretion to the judges.

    When you see a GOE score of -0.40, this typically means that after highest and lowest are dropped, 4 judges gave a -1 and three judges gave a 0 to the element. The zeros either thought that there were positive features that compensated for the (mild) error, or else they thought the take-off edge was OK despite the call.

    If the error on take-off is so bad as to fall into the "severe" category, I suppose the idea is that the skater should not get full credit for the jump even if it is otherwise excellent, hence the "must have negative GOE" designation.

  11. #281
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    Thank you MM!! It's very muddy to me at times the way scores are given. It makes for good arguments because no one really seems to be able to say "look here...I'm right." They've removed the (!) from many arguments if you will. Again, thanks for the response.

  12. #282
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    I actually don't mind that the scoring guidelines are "muddy." We have to give the judges room to exercise judgement -- that's why we call them judges rather than tape measures and micrometers. I do not think it is a flaw in the system if a judge is allowed to say, "wow! that was an amazing triple Lutz" without having to check this box or that.

    I also seem to be in the minority in that I do not think that vigorous discussion of the judging after the fact is harmful to the sport. Did you like Adelina Sotnikova's attack and pizzazz? Yuna Kim's confident mastery? Carolina Kostner's elegance and grace? Mao Asada's inimitable Mao-ness?

  13. #283
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    You've been slowly converting me to this way of thinking.

  14. #284
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    I love debating the subjective aspects of judging, such as PCS and the qualitative aspects of GOEs.

    As long as everyone respects those whose judgments disagree with their own.

    It's the "I'm right and everyone who disagrees is wrong/stupid/corrupt" types of arguments that drive me crazy. Just make your case on its own merits.

  15. #285
    Landing 3As in my dreams! skatedreamer's Avatar
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    What is "toe hammering" in relation to jump technique? Someone mentioned it in the "What Happened to Mao" thread re: her 3F. Sadly, I'm familiar with hammer toes in a podiatric context but clearly it's something entirely different in skating. Thanks lots!

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