Well, since it's the stupid questions thread...
Does any have any insight into what's the ideal body type for a male singles skater? I used to believe it favoured shorter, stockier people like Elvis Stojko or Alexei Yagudin, who would have the necessary balance to land the jumps. However, at the other end of the rink is 5'10, dozen-surgery Plushenko, who's still quad-ing at 31. And 5'10, less injured but still relatively old Joubert, who can still do two-quad free skates. Now I'm starting to believe it favours rail-thin, tiny-bone-structure people like Hanyu (just look at the ease of his jumps!) But perhaps body type doesn't matter too much (within reason), and it's more about training/technique?
I guess this is really a beginner question...well that's what I am so here it goes:
How does the ISU decide which grand prix competition a skater goes to? Is it by draw or are there other deciding factors?
Welcome to Golden Skate, firal! There is no luck about it at all.
The rules change a bit from year to year. The rules for skater assignments to the 2014-2015 Grand Prix have not yet been published, but here are the rules from last season. The new rules usually come out in June or July. Note how important an assignment to Worlds is in these selection rules. Also note the importance of the Host countries' selections.
To see how this might work, here's the Season's Best List for Men
DESIGNATION OF THE SKATERS
2.1 Seeded Skaters/Couples
a) Skaters/couples who have placed 1 – 6 in each of the 4 disciplines (Men, Ladies, Pairs, Ice Dance) at the ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2013 will be considered to be seeded skaters/couples and will be assigned, by draw, to skate in two events.
b) If any vacancies (less than 6 seeded skaters/couples per discipline) remain, the next ranked skater/couple frokm the results of the 2013 World Figure Skating Championships will be moved up to fill their position as a seeded skater/couple.
c) “Come-Back” Skaters/Couples: Skaters/Couples who were previously seeded (placed 1 to 6 within the past 10 years at a ISU World Figure Skating Championships) and subsequently did not participate in one more competitive seasons will be given priority consideration to re-enter the Grand Prix for selection of up to 2 assignments if they commit in writing to participating in 2 Grand Prix events and if such return is announced and confirmed by the date of the annual Selection Meeting. Such so called “come back skaters/couples” will not substitute any of the seeded skaters/couples, mentioned under a). “Come Back Skaters/Couples” must not fulfil the requirements of the minimum score and would be considered for selection as a Host Country Choice. A come back under this clause is allowed only once in their competitive career for any skater/couple.
d) If a seeded or “come-back” skater/couple withdraws from an assigned event, even for medical reasons, that skater/couple will not be assigned to another event.
2.2. Invited skaters/couples
a) Skaters/couples who have placed 7 – 12 in each of the 4 disciplines (Men, Ladies, Pairs, Ice Dance) at the ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2013 will be guaranteed to be selected for two ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating events, provided that these skaters/couples fulfil the requirements of the minimum score. If there are any retirements from placements 7 – 12, the vacant places will be completed with the next ranked skaters/couples of the 2013 ISU World Figure Skating Championships (placed 13 and below) will be moved up to fill their position as Placement 7 -12 skaters/couples.
b) Return of a Split Couple - “Returning Split Couple” Pairs or Dance couples, who were previously in the top 7 to 12 of an ISU World Figure Skating Championships in the past two seasons (2011/12 or 2012/13) but who split and now have a new partner, may always be chosen as a Host Country Skater paragraph as per 2.2.f) and in addition, may be considered as an Organizing Member’s Choice as per paragraph 2.2. g). They will be ranked in the list of Season’s Best scores by taking the season’s points of their partnership with their most recent previous partner, if proof is given in writing by their Member that they intend to continue their competitive career and their return is announced and confirmed by the date of the annual Selection Meeting. Such Pairs/Dance couples are defined as a “Returning Split Couple” and such Returning Split Couples do not need to fulfill the requirement of a minimum score.
c) Return of a ranked skater/couple - “Return Skater/Couple” A skater or couple, not included among those defined in paragraphs a) and b) above, who was previously in the top 7 to 12 at the 2011 or 2012 ISU World Figure Skating Championships but since was injured and/or did not compete at all during the entire 2012/13 season, may be chosen, if applicable, as a Host Country Skater, and in addition, may be considered as a Organizing Member’s Choice and will be ranked in the list of Season’s Best scores by taking the Season’s Best points of their most recent season, if proof is given in writing by their Member that they intend to continue their competitive career and their return is announced and confirmed by the date of the annual Selection Meeting. Such skater or couple is defined as a “Return Skater/Couple” and such a Return Skater/Couple does not need to fulfill the requirement of a minimum score.
d) Skaters/couples with an ISU World Standing placement of 1 – 24 (after season 2012/13) and skaters/couples with seasonal best scores in the top 24 (for season 2012/13) who do not hold an ISU World Standing placement of 1 – 24 will be guaranteed one (1) event if they do not otherwise meet the criteria listed in paragraphs 2.1 or 2.2 above and the minimum score. A listing of seasonal best scores for each season will be compiled to include the following events: * ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating and Final * * * * ISU Senior Grand Prix of Figure Skating and Final ISU Figure Skating Championships Olympic Winter Games or Youth Olympic Games (if applicable in the year concerned) Other ISU controlled events as identified each season by the ISU Council.
e) Medallists from the ISU World Junior Figure Skating Championships 2013 and the gold medallists from the ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating Final 2012/13 will be included in the selection process. Skaters/couples who have stated their intention to skate as Senior in the season 2013/14 might be included in the Grand Prix event(s) if they fulfil the requirements of the minimum score.
f) A maximum of three (3) skaters/couples in each discipline from the Organizing Member may skate in the Organizing Member’s event. This includes skaters/couples selected according to paragraph 2.1 and 2.2 above. If the Organizing Member chooses not to exercise its option for the three (3) skaters/couples in any discipline from its own country, the remaining slot(s) must be filled as per paragraphs 2.2 a) to e) above. The domestic skaters/couples should fulfil the criteria of being on the top 75 Season’s Best list when firstselected. It is not mandatory for the Organizing Member’s skaters/couple to fulfil the criteria of the minimum score but it is strongly suggested.
g) If any slot(s) remains open and if all skaters/couples as defined in paragraph 2.2. a), b) and c) above have been selected for one (1) event, the Organizing Member may select any skater/couple with a top 75 seasonal best score to fill the open slot(s).
h) In addition to the seeded skaters/couples, or “come-back” skaters/couples and the above-mentioned invited skaters/couples, each Organizing Member may select additional skaters/couples in accordance with selection procedures established by the ISU Grand Prix Coordination Group, provided that such skaters/couples have reached the minimum score as required. The maximum number of entries per event, however, is set as follows: Men and Ladies Pairs Ice Dance
i) not more than 10 but not less than 8 entries not more than 8 but not less than 6 entries not more than 8 but not less than 6 entries No invited skaters/dance couples may compete in more than two events of the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating. These events will count for points and Prize Money will be awarded according to placements.
j) k) l) A maximum of three skaters/couples from the same Member may compete in the same discipline of any individual event of the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating. Non-seeded skaters/couples will not be invited to another event in replacement if they choose not to skate in an assigned event. Non-seeded skaters/couples will not be invited to another event in replacement if, by medical reason, they withdraw from an assigned event. For the responsibility of the expenses please refer to paragraph 7.5 below.
2.3 Minimum Score for Grand Prix events
Each entrant to the Grand Prix six events must meet a minimum total score from ISU Events (GP, JGP, Championships, World Team Trophy (WTT) or in the five (5) selected international competitions as mentioned hereunder) of the previous season OR a minimum technical score in short program/short dance and free programs/free dance from such ISU Events or selected international competitions (last season or current season) to be included in the entry or the Alternate List (with exceptions and procedures as noted in paragraphs 6, 8 and 9 and 10). These scores will be published annually and be taken in dialogue with the ISU Technical Committee in each discipline and approved by the ISU Grand Prix Coordination Group. The events within the selected international competitions as listed hereunder from last season or the current season must meet the criteria that the composition of the Technical Panel fulfills the requirement of an ISU qualified Technical Controller and at least one Technical Specialist with an ISU qualification.
and here's the Men's Results from 2014 Worlds
1 Yuzuru HANYU JPN 282.59 3 1
2 Tatsuki MACHIDA JPN 282.26 1 2
3 Javier FERNANDEZ ESP 275.93 2 3
4 Maxim KOVTUN RUS 247.37 7 5
5 Jeremy ABBOTT USA 246.35 8 4. may retire
6 Takahiko KOZUKA JPN 238.02 6 6 may retire
7 Han YAN CHN 231.91 5 11
8 Max AARON USA 225.66 9 8
9 Chafik BESSEGHIER FRA 224.19 10 7
10 Tomas VERNER CZE 223.14 4 15 may retire
11 Kevin REYNOLDS CAN 215.51 15 10
12 Nam NGUYEN CAN 214.06 16 9
13 Ivan RIGHINI ITA 213.09 14 12
14 Peter LIEBERS GER 211.92 11 14
15 Alexei BYCHENKO ISR 211.24 12 13
If all 3 retire, Bychenko will be the 12th placed skater, and will get 2 spots, as will all the skaters placed ahead of him..
If Abbott and Kozuka retire, Han Yan and Max Aaron will be in the the top six seeds.
Things are complicated by not knowing for sure which skaters are retiring, or are choosing to take a season off.
Here's the top 24 list
1 295.27 Patrick CHAN CAN ISU GP Trophee Bompard 2013 16.11.2013 may take next year off
2 293.25 Yuzuru HANYU JPN ISU Grand Prix Final 2013/14 06.12.2013 qualified at Worlds
3 282.26 Tatsuki MACHIDA JPN ISU World Championships 2014 28.03.2014 qualified at Worlds
4 275.93 Javier FERNANDEZ ESP ISU World Championships 2014 28.03.2014 qualified at Worlds
5 268.31 Daisuke TAKAHASHI JPN ISU GP NHK Trophy 2013 09.11.2013 taking next year off
6 262.98 Nobunari ODA JPN Nebelhorn Trophy 2013 28.09.2013 retired
7 255.10 Denis TEN KAZ XXII Olympic Winter Games 2014 14.02.2014
8 252.55 Sergei VORONOV RUS ISU European Championships 2014 18.01.2014
9 247.37 Maxim KOVTUN RUS ISU World Championships 2014 28.03.2014 qualified at Worlds
10 246.35 Jeremy ABBOTT USA ISU World Championships 2014 28.03.2014 qualified at Worlds
11 246.20 Han YAN CHN XXII Olympic Winter Games 2014 14.02.2014 qualified at Worlds
12 243.09 Jason BROWN USA ISU GP Trophee Bompard 2013 16.11.2013
13 242.56 Takahito MURA JPN ISU Four Continents Championships 2014 24.01.2014
14 241.24 Adam RIPPON USA ISU GP Hilton HHonors Skate America 2013 19.10.2013
15 239.87 Peter LIEBERS GER XXII Olympic Winter Games 2014 14.02.2014 qualified at Worlds
16 238.36 Max AARON USA ISU GP Hilton HHonors Skate America 2013 19.10.2013 qualified at Worlds
17 238.02 Takahiko KOZUKA JPN ISU World Championships 2014 28.03.2014 qualified at Worlds
18 237.24 Konstantin MENSHOV RUS ISU European Championships 2014 18.01.2014
19 236.98 Michal BREZINA CZE ISU European Championships 2014 18.01.2014
20 236.09 Nan SONG CHN ISU Four Continents Championships 2014 24.01.2014
21 232.99 Tomas VERNER CZE XXII Olympic Winter Games 2014 14.02.2014 may retire
22 231.77 Brian JOUBERT FRA XXII Olympic Winter Games 2014 14.02.2014 may retire
23 224.86 Alexander MAJOROV SWE XXII Olympic Winter Games 2014 14.02.2014
24 224.44 Richard DORNBUSH USA ISU Four Continents 2014 24.01.2014
And those who get at least one event from having a World standing in the top 24 (lots of duplicates)
1 5078 Yuzuru HANYU JPN Qualified at Worlds
2 4608 Patrick CHAN CAN may take next season off
3 4147 Tatsuki MACHIDA JPN Qualified at Worlds
4 4035 Javier FERNANDEZ ESP Qualified at Worlds
5 3871 Denis TEN KAZ
6 3529 Daisuke TAKAHASHI JPN Taking next season off
7 3065 Michal BREZINA CZE
8 3018 Takahito MURA JPN
9 2911 Maxim KOVTUN RUS Qualified at Worlds
10 2800 Takahiko KOZUKA JPN May retire
11 2679 Jeremy ABBOTT USA Qualified at Worlds, may retire
12 2636 Han YAN CHN Qualified at Worlds
13 2622 Konstantin MENSHOV RUS
14 2589 Max AARON USA Qualified at Worlds
15 2531 Richard DORNBUSH USA
16 2426 Ross MINER USA
17 2388 Sergei VORONOV RUS
18 2372 Florent AMODIO FRA
19 2370 Alexander MAJOROV SWE
20 2344 Nobunari ODA JPN Retired
21 2303 Peter LIEBERS GER Qualified at Worlds
22 2283 Jason BROWN USA
23 2225 Joshua FARRIS
24 2203 Adam RIPPON USA
Finally, Junior Grand Prix Final Medalists, who are old enough, and chose to compete as seniors, are part of the selection process
1 Boyang JIN CHN 218.73 5 1
2 Adian PITKEEV RUS 216.24 2 2
3 Nathan CHEN USA 214.61 3 3 Will be 15 in May; I believe he will be doing another year in Juniors
And Junior Worlds Medalists who are old enough, and chose to compete as seniors, are part of the selection process
1 Nam NGUYEN CAN 217.06 1 1 Qualified at Senior Worlds
2 Adian PITKEEV RUS 212.51 7 2
3 Nathan CHEN USA 212.03 6 3 Will be 15 in May; I believe he is doing another year in Juniors
There are a total of 60 slots, 10 per event. 24 of those slots are filled by the 12 men who qualified at Worlds. The remaining 36 will be from the above lists, or will be host nation picks.
Last edited by dorispulaski; 05-03-2014 at 03:47 AM.
Why is back outside edge the only landing position for multi-rotation jumps? For a counterclockwise skater, this is the right back outside. It's pretty intuitive that the right back inside, left back outside, right front outside, and left front inside would quickly lead to a fall. However, it seems like the skater could still land on the left back inside, right front inside, and left front outside edges, and still have a free leg to stop the rotation. In particular, landing on a left front outside edge would seem to set the skater up to do an axel, which would then let the axel be second or third in a combination jump.
Now, NOT taking into account that Kozuka, Abbott, and Verner may choose not to retire, and NOT taking into account that other skaters may retire, (and of course, not taking into account any rule changes) we end up with the following approximate list of guys who will be skating on the Grand Prix next year.
Top 12 non retirees from Worlds (24 slots)
1 Yuzuru HANYU JPN
2 Tatsuki MACHIDA JPN
3 Javier FERNANDEZ ESP
4 Maxim KOVTUN RUS
7 Han YAN CHN
8 Max AARON USA
9 Chafik BESSEGHIER FRA
11 Kevin REYNOLDS CAN
12 Nam NGUYEN CAN
13 Ivan RIGHINI ITA
14 Peter LIEBERS GER
15 Alexei BYCHENKO ISR
12 Men from the top 24 World Standings, one spot each
5 Denis TEN KAZ
7 Michal BREZINA CZE
8 Takahito MURA JPN[/b]
13 Konstantin MENSHOV RUS
15 Richard DORNBUSH USA
16 Ross MINER USA
17 Sergei VORONOV RUS
18 Florent AMODIO FRA
19 Alexander MAJOROV SWE
22 Jason BROWN USA
23 Joshua FARRIS
24 Adam RIPPON USA[/b]
One men on the season's best top 24 list, not already accounted for, one event
20 Nan SONG CHN
Two medalists from the Junior circuit, if they choose to compete as seniors, one event each
1 Boyang JIN CHN
2 Adian PITKEEV RUS
Which leaves us, 12 men with two spots each guaranteed
15 men with one spot each guaranteed, for a total of 39 slots filled, with 21 slots left to fill, from a combination of host picks, which often give a second spot to some of the 15 men who have only one guaranteed spot, and host picks from the 25th through 75th slots on the Season's best list, and from Host federation skaters who did not otherwise qualify.
I understand that the Selection Meeting will be in June. After that is complete, we will still not know the whole Entry List for each event, because sometimes Host Nations list their Host Picks as TBA, pending the results of summer competiions, and other considerations.
Last edited by dorispulaski; 05-03-2014 at 04:10 AM.
This is something that's been bothering me ever since I heard Fernandez had to skate in his old boots (held together with duct tape!) because he couldn't adjust to new ones: Do skaters usually have an extra pair of skates when they compete? It just seems like you'd want to have a back up. What happens in a skate gets damaged during warm up or something? Game over?
At least twice that I can remember, skaters who lost or broke a skate borrowed someone else's. Mark Ladwig, a US pair skater, borrowed a skate from Rudi Swiegers, a Canadian pair skater, at a 4cc's.
Last year at Worlds, Yurii Bieliaiev, an ice dancer from Belarus, borrowed skates from Canadian skater Adam Johnson and Bieliaiev's partner, Victoria Kavaliova, borrowed skates from one of Scott Moir's relatives.
On the other side of the coin, I seem to remember hearing that Davis & White took 2 pairs of skates each to Olympics?
Last edited by dorispulaski; 05-03-2014 at 12:54 PM.
The way the human foot and leg are designed, landing with momentum traveling backward allows the skater to control that momentum and maintain flow horizontal flow across the ice while stopping (checking) the rotational momentum. The weight from the free leg stretched backward in the direction of travel and the weight pushed forward from bending at the knee and at the hip joint counteract each other to keep the momentum traveling backward. And the upper body is in a better position to check the rotational momentum more easily on the back outside edge than on back inside.
Traveling forward, bending the knee would only add more forward momentum. Our arms can't reach back nearly as far as they can reach forward. So there's nothing but the free leg stretching back to counteract that forward momentum.
The natural tendency would be for the whole body to continue moving forward and to fall on the face. As jennyanydots
says, landing with a toe assist from the other foot helps a lot with the control.
Here's a 1-revolution jump from an axel takeoff landing on forward outside edge (performed in both directions). Not much speed here, and it doesn't look especially stable -- imagine to check out of two or three full rotations in that position.
If our knees and hips bent both forward and backward equally, then all high-momentum skills could be done equally both forward and backward on skates. But nature didn't design us that way.
And then the humans who designed the blades for skating worked with what we've got to enhance those possibilities, which makes some of the skills potentially even more dangerous than they would be with different blade designs. Theoretically someone could design blades that made forward-traveling one-foot landings safe enough to execute with double and higher-revolution jumps, but whatever that design might be would probably also work against many other established skating skills.
Then there was the famous time when the heel of Michelle Kwan's boot broke off just before the qualifying round at 2001 Worlds. Her dad nailed it back on with a ten-penny nail. Michelle skated with one boot higher than the othher. She did seven triples including her triple-triple and went on to win her fourth world championship.
Woah, Evan had to borrow from Johnny? He's, like, twice Johnny's height!
Just one of the many reasons why Michelle Kwan is badass.
While I'm not the skating expert here, I suspect boots need to be broken in to. Even regular shoes need to be broken in to--new pairs never feel quite right. I dunno why they don't just alternate between two pairs, but I suspect Panpie is correct and neither pair would end up feeling quite 'right.' Better to risk the one pair that works since severe problems right at the moment of competition should be rare, unless you went to a poor manufacturer.
To the Original questioner: By the way, maybe you already know this, but the skate boots and blades are two different things, usually made by different manufacturers. I recently found out that my hometown has a company that supplies skates to some of the top figure skaters, including Patrick Chan and Gracie Gold. They've been here for some time, but I had never heard of them until just before the Sochi Olympics. They are a supplier for both figure skaters and roller skaters. Don't you know it, I forgot to include that little factoid in the "Where Are Y'all From" topic.
Patrick Chan has more than one pair of skates in use at a time. He sends his skates to Toronto for sharpening so he needs alternate pairs.