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Thread: Stupid Questions Thread

  1. #376
    Landing 3As in my dreams! skatedreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Maybe Manley's camp was thinking that if she won the freeskate with Ito 2nd and Witt 3rd, she would have won the gold.

    But if Ito had won the free with Manley 2nd and Witt 3rd -- likely how those programs would have been judged just a few years later -- the medal placements would have been the same as they actually were. Only Ito would have moved ahead of Trenary for 4th place overall.
    Would Manley's scores in the school figures scores have been enough?

    Sandpiper -- Ito's jumps were amazing that night, even more so because at the time, women simply did not jump like that. It was her presentation that probably pulled her down. Still, a jaw-dropping performance!

  2. #377
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Ito's presentation was wonderful in 1988. The problem was that her figures were so bad that she skated very early in the competition. Even with COP, where theoretically skate order should not count, the PCS scores of early skaters seem to be held down. In Ito's day, it was done the same way.

  3. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatedreamer View Post
    Would Manley's scores in the school figures scores have been enough?
    At that time, it was factored placements that determined the results, not the actual scores.

    You can see the placements here:
    http://winter-olympic-memories.com/h...5_figure_w.htm

    Manley (with 3.6 after the short program) was 1.4 behind Witt (with 2.2) going into the free skate.
    The factor for the free skate was always 1.0. So she needed to beat Witt by two places in the free skate to beat her overall.

    Scroll down to the Detailed Results button if you want to see the actual scores for each phase of competition.

    What I'm not sure about was how the results of the three separate figures were combined. Looks like the actual scores for each figure were added up by judge to create ordinals for the figures phase as a whole, which was then multiplied by the 0.6 factor for that phase.

  4. #379
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    But if Ito had won the free with Manley 2nd and Witt 3rd -- likely how those programs would have been judged just a few years later -- the medal placements would have been the same as they actually were. Only Ito would have moved ahead of Trenary for 4th place overall.
    This sounds about right to me (the LP placements). Manley deserves a higher technical mark than Witt but a lower presentation mark--I guess, since the technical mark was the tiebreaker back then, Manley deserves to come out ahead. (I was thinking too much in terms of the presentation mark earlier, since that later became the tiebreaker.) But no way should Manley have been ahead of Ito in technical merit (or presentation, for that matter). For technical merit, I'd say Ito >>> Manley > Witt. For presentation, Witt > Ito > Manley. Doesn't look like Manley wuzrobbed to me (as nice as it would've been to have a Canadian woman win gold). Ito, sadly, couldn't overcome her figures deficit even if she won the LP, so she wasn't really robbed of a medal, per se.

  5. #380
    Love popcorn, hate horrendous costumes. Meoima's Avatar
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    Can I ask does fast spin have good effect on jump? I mean if a skater has strong point at spinning and she/he usually spins very fast on ice, does that mean she/he can spin very fast on air, too (good for triple/quad)?

    But then I remember Lambiel who was an excellent spinner but not that excellent jumper, and Plushenko was not very good at spins. Does this mean spin and jump has no connection?

  6. #381
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    ^A very intriguing question.

    I actually feel like Lambiel's jumping is a bit underrated. His hits his opening quad most of the time, iirc, and he was one of the few people to do 4-3-2 (along with Plush and Yagudin). He's also one of the first to attempt a second quad past the halfway mark. Granted, he very rarely hit that quad, and he kind of had no choice since his 3A was among the worst for an elite skater. His jumps weren't exactly stable, but for the era he competed in ('02-10), he was probably third behind Plushenko and Joubert.

    Plush is just one of a long line of "Great jumper, great performer, mediocre spinner" among the Russian champions. See: Urmanov, Kulik, Yagudin. Under 6.0, it seems like the North Americans tended to be better spinners (Stojko, Eldridge). I wonder if the Russian school didn't emphasize spins as much? Plush also did the Biellmann when he was younger to compensate. He did improve his spins under COP--the Tosca SP in Torino was probably the best his spins ever looked, and even Dick Button praised them. Nowadays, he probably has his hands full with relearning his jumps after all the surgeries, so it's no wonder his spins have actually regressed. He doesn't seem to be a natural spinner like Lambiel (or perhaps he didn't have a good enough foundation when he was younger).

    Among the women: Denise Biellmann was a good spinner and an excellent jumper in her day (first women to do 3Lz). Yuna Kim and Mao Asada have both. Mao probably fits best into what Meoima is describing: She rotates extremely quick in the air, which is how she can do the 3A even though Yuna has more height/distance on her jumps. On the other hand, Miki Ando is a fantastic jumper but a meh spinner.

    ...So, I don't know what this long rant is saying. You can be good at both, but it doesn't look like there's a direct connection. Or, perhaps, it's a matter of training: Swiss chocolate wins over Russian school? I don't know.

  7. #382
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    Some of the best spinners became best spinners because they trained in public rinks with no room to practice other skills so they did a lot of spinning. Lucinda Ruh chose to excel at spinning because her father told her to make a name for oneself one has to be better than anybody in something. Plushenko might have the body for spinning but his training focused on jumps. He is a great spinner in the air.

  8. #383
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    I've got a question about jump combinations. Why are they a part of programs? They seem to be much easier to pull off than a 3-3 (excluding 3 jump combos with the second jump loop/half loop and third jump salchow).

  9. #384
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    You need the "in between jumps" to get on the correct edge for the next jump in the combination. In your example, the loop is re-setting the correct edge for the salchow.

  10. #385
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    i said excluding 3 jump combos with the loop/half loop in the middle.

    in other words, why a 3-2-2/2A-2-2? doesn't seem to be any harder than a 3-2.

  11. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    There was one costume that got a costume deduction that was not for pieces falling off. A French skater, I believe it was Mae Berenice Meite, got a deduction for a catsuit that exactly matched her skin tone with a few strategically placed gold swirls. It was several years ago.
    Kostomarov lost something on the ice during the 2003 Euro FD and they implied that's why they lost to Denkova Staviski. They've been beating them before at COR and GPF (both held in Russia) but lost to them at Euro & Worlds.

    Slutskaya wore a full unitar for her 2006 SP.

  12. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by AsadaFanBoy View Post
    i said excluding 3 jump combos with the loop/half loop in the middle.

    in other words, why a 3-2-2/2A-2-2? doesn't seem to be any harder than a 3-2.
    My guess as to the reasoning for including them:

    At the time the system was being designed, Plushenko was occasionally attempting 4T+3T+3Lo, and both he and others were sometimes landing 4T+3T+2Lo. This was a Wow move that they didn't want to outlaw.

    3-3-2 would have been a Wow for a lady, although even rarer.

    As long as such an option was available for the best jumpers, the rules had to be written in such a way that average and below-average jumpers could also take advantage of it.

    For example, a below-average senior lady jumper with command of easier jumps but nonexistent harder triples might be able to do 3T, 3T+2T, 3S, 3S+2T, 2A, 2A for six of her jumping passes. Something like 2F+2Lo+2Lo would be a useful option for her to earn more points and show off some better jumping skills than a simple 2F+2Lo.

  13. #388
    Rinkside
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    Hello,

    May I ask how audiences know what GPF circuit the skaters are taking? I just want to know who will be in Skate America.

    Thank you!

  14. #389
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erasona View Post
    Hello,

    May I ask how audiences know what GPF circuit the skaters are taking? I just want to know who will be in Skate America.

    Thank you!
    June 27th!!! That's when we'll know. I'm sure they'll be a thread here discussing who is going where

  15. #390
    Rinkside
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    Great! Thank you!

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