Random Figure Skating Questions

jimeonji said:

I think this is relevant - Kozuka's 2008-2009 ex, in which he does an outside spread into a 3S in the CCW direction and then a 2S in the CW direction.

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Yes, that's amazing I didn't say it's not. Just saying, use both of your hand to draw the same figure, even if you were ambidextrous, the image drawn by the left hand will look a little different from the one by your right hand. And I am saying this from my own experience. Still, jumping in 2 directions is very impressive, though.

Meoima said:

Yes, that's amazing I didn't say it's not. Just saying, use both of your hand to draw the same figure, even if you were ambidextrous, the image drawn by the left hand will look a little different from the one by your right hand. And I am saying this from my own experience. Still, jumping in 2 directions is very impressive, though.

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Oh, I agree with you. Of course Taka's 2S doesn't flow too well and his rotation isn't as fast either. I just linked it as it was the topic at hand.

jimeonji said:

It's difficult to answer for singles because, honestly, there is no highest possible score. We don't know the extent of technical content that our bodies can handle - will someone land a quad axel? Will we be able to do quintuples? Thus, it is impossible to tell what the absolute highest possible score is. However, given that the IJS only gives us point values up to the quad axel, we can calculate the highest possible score with quad axel as the most difficult possible jump.

For Men's SP, let's put everything in the second half to rack up points. (I'm not too familiar with spins and what's required, so I'm copying off Hanyu's Worlds 2014 spins BV because it seems that he had the highest spins BV. Someone please correct me if there's anything I can put in to make the score higher.)
TES:
StSq4 3.9 +2.1 = 6
FCSp4 3.2 +1.5 = 4.7
CSSp4 3 +1.5 = 4.5
CCoSp4 3.5 +1.5 = 5
----
4A 15*1.1 =16.5 +3.6 = 20.1
4Lz-3Lo 13.6+5.1 = 18.7*1.1 = 20.57 +3 = 23.57
3A 8.5*1.1 = 9.35 +3 = 12.35
total: 76.22
In the SP, it is required to do either a double or a triple axel. This keeps the points from being higher - otherwise, I would've put a 4F there and it could've gotten up to 12.3*1.1 = 13.4 + 3 = 16.3 points and the TES would be 80.17. It is also required to do a jump combination - a 3-2, 3-3, 4-2, or 4-3. If a 4-4 was allowed, I would put in a 4Lz-4T, which would've gotten 13.6+10.3 = 23.9*1.1 = 26.29 +3 = 29.29 and the TES would've increased 5.72 points; together with the 4F option the TES would've been 85.89.

PCS: highest possible PCS would mean 10s across the board, or an average of 10 per component. The PCS would be 50.

76.22 + 50 = 126.22
with the 4F and the 4Lz-4T, 85.89 + 50 = 135.89.

That was actually pretty fun, but I'm not going to attempt to do it for the long program, lol.
Please correct me if I messed up the math or the rules - my question is, can there be more than one axel in the short program? When the COP requirements say "triple jump" do they mean all the triples except the triple axel?

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Thanks so much. It really racks my brain. Dance and synchro are easy as all elements in these disciplines are elements with levels/GOE only graded elements. Pairs could be a little easier but singles sound like a nightmare. I will do some maths of my own and get back to it soon.

I have two quick questions,
Why do we no longer have pro competitions and why did they stop pro-am competitions??

Just curious,
thanks

I don't think the pro competitions were pulling in enough dollars or generating enough interest for sponsors to continue supporting them.

I have a question to those who know a bit of history. It's about those harnesses/lasso (I don't know the name) that are used while learning double/triple jumps. They prevent bad falls. Were they used for a long time? My question is more about late 70s and 80s. At that time triple jumps were like quadruples now, and I don't know why. How did they train and why was so difficult to do a triple (not that is a walk in the park). Figure skating haven't evolved so much in the quality of the equipment. Ice is still the same and skates are almost the same...For example Floor in gymnastics was different when Nadia Comaneci did her double back than now.

Sabrina said:

It's about those harnesses/lasso (I don't know the name) that are used while learning double/triple jumps. They prevent bad falls. Were they used for a long time?

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Maybe bit of offtop, but in Russia coaches still use those harnesses when teaching kids 2.5 rev. and higher jumps, seems it's quite widespread equipment. Kids call that thing a fishing rod. It does look like a read rod IMO - http://youtu.be/jy4KUrMpXcQ#t=280s
Girls like Lipnitskaya and Sakhanovich mentioned that they tried jumping quadriples on the rod.
On the other hand, Japanese skater Miyu Honda who is 9 years old was surprised to see such a thing at rink in Russia, so it seems Japanese coaches don't use that stuff.

There are three harnesses being used at the rink I'm at as I type this. The harness is used quite often at this American Rink. :yes:

1. What percentage of competitive skaters can land a triple?

2. After a competition have any skaters taken to the same ice that night/day to do a quick practice for peace of mind?

3. What do skaters usually do right after a competition? Do they hangout with other skaters and catch a bite? Go home/hotel? Catch a team bus?

Those "fishing" rods (similar, but they are anchored by the ceiling) are used at my rink, in Canada...but what I wonder is if they were used 20-30 years ago...Training methods did change in time, or not so much?

Johar said:

1. What percentage of competitive skaters can land a triple?

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How are you defining "competitive skaters"?

Johar said:

3. What do skaters usually do right after a competition? Do they hangout with other skaters and catch a bite? Go home/hotel? Catch a team bus?

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Pretty sure I saw an interview with Johnny Weir in Vancouver and he said the the first thing he does is pee in a cup. . . i.e. drug testing. I think he also made a comment about indulgent eating.

gkelly said:

How are you defining "competitive skaters"?

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Skating clubs. Those who skate in competitions but not on the Olympic/Nationals levels

Johar said:

Skating clubs. Those who skate in competitions but not on the Olympic/Nationals levels

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I can answer about my area of the US.

"Competitive skaters" in the US could be defined as those who enter qualifying competitions -- Regionals at Juvenile, Intermediate, Novice, Junior, and Senior levels, aiming to qualify for Sectionals and Nationals. (Plus the few who have byes)

Juveniles are not allowed to do triples.

My region is one of the larger, more competitive regions in the country, but with few major training centers. So you can consider the percentage of triples landed a bit above average.

At regionals last year there were 76 intermediate ladies competing (not counting a handful of withdrawals) in 5 initial rounds, with top 4 from each group moving onto the final round short and long program. From a quick skim of the protocols, it looks like 4 of those skaters landed at least one triple in at least one program and 1 or 2 others attempted but did not succeed.

Of 7 intermediate men, 2 landed triples.

There were 55 novice ladies in 4 groups, of whom 9 landed clean or moderately flawed triples in the initial rounds and moved on to the finals, and 2 others attempted but failed and didn't move on.

There was no novice men's event held; evidently fewer than 4 registered so they had the option to advance automatically to sectionals without competing.

There were 22 Junior ladies, of whom 9 landed at least one clean or slightly flawed triple in the freeskate and 2 others attempted but failed.

There were 2 Junior men, both of whom landed some triples.

Sixteen Senior ladies, of whom about 5 landed triples and about 5 others attempted in at least one program (they're required to attempt them in the SP, so failed attempts there don't necessarily mean that they're actually capable of landing them).

No senior men competed.

I.e., at the middle levels where triples are allowed (intermediate and novice), they are rare among the girls, less so among the boys, but there aren't nearly as many boys out there.

At junior and senior levels, in my region it seems a little less than half of the ladies have actually mastered one or more kinds of triples. Again, there are few men, but I think it's fair to say that men who compete at junior and senior levels can do some triples -- if they get to that level and can't do the jumps, they don't compete.

Skaters who actually qualify for Nationals at junior or senior level generally have several triples. It's rare for novices to make it to US Nationals (12 out of a couple hundred novice ladies in the US) without at least one or two triples, often four or five. Some but not all intermediates who make it that far include a triple or two, maybe more for the top boys.

I don't really know what the percentages are like in other countries. But skaters who get sent to international competitions usually have triples. And now that there are minimum scores required to enter ISU championships, it's nearly impossible to meet those minimums without some triples. Nor is it possible to get invited to the Grand Prix without them.

In the lower ranks of JGP and some senior B events you will see some skaters who don't attempt triples and others who attempt but can't rotate them.

Is it possible to know how many entries does Latvia have for JGP in each discipline this season? Does it depends on last years Junior Worlds results? Thanks in advance!

catchie said:

Is it possible to know how many entries does Latvia have for JGP in each discipline this season? Does it depends on last years Junior Worlds results? Thanks in advance!

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See the JGP announcement:

The relevant pages:

golden411 said:

See the JGP announcement:

http://isuprod.blob.core.windows.net/media/148063/jgp2014-15_announcement.pdf (25-page PDF)​

The relevant pages:

~ pp. 3-5, re Entries

(listings of how exactly Junior Worlds results earn the number of entries per country per discipline)​

~ pp. 15-18, Tables A-D

(for each discipline: Entry Possibilities by Member Federations based on the result of the ISU World Junior Figure Skating Championships® 2014)​

~ pp. 19-25, Annexes

(for each of the seven JGPs: List of Maximum Skaters per ISU Member)​

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Thank you very much! Very helpful!

Is it true that the European Championship is the oldest/first figure skating event?

first Europeans 1891

That is older than Worlds, which began in 1896.

The joint German/Austrio-Hungarian Championship also began in 1891.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Figure_Skating_Championships#History

US, Canadian, French and British Championships began in the early 20th century.

Norwegian 1894
Swedish 1895
Russia 1897

However, Skating clubs are older, and I would not be surprised if there were club competitions older than that.

SCNY celebrated its 150th year this last January, and has some fascinating historical info on its site this year.

http://www.thescny.org/index.php/150-years/timeline

Skating Club of Philadelphia is the US oldest club (1849)
http://pschs.org/index.php/club-history/


So Europeans may be the oldest formally sanctioned competition, but there were less formal competitions prior to that.
http://www.usfigureskating.org/About.asp?id=101


Here's USFSA's take on it.

Although skating was born in Europe, Americans can be proud of the fact that figure skating, as we know it today, traces its origins directly back to an American - Jackson Haines - who was born in New York in 1840 and died in 1875 in Finland (popular folklore holds that he caught pneumonia during a raging blizzard he encountered while traveling by sled from St. Petersburg to Stockholm; in reality his death was attributed to tuberculosis).
Just before the Civil War, a skating craze, accompanied by a dancing craze, swept America, and during this time, Haines leapt into the limelight with his daring combination of both skating and dance. He was a true revolutionary, for in a country where figure skating had laboriously developed a stiff and rigid style, the free and expressive movements of his virtuoso performances were frowned on, if not actually condemned.

Haines claimed to be the champion of America in 1863; however, at that time many self-proclaimed "championships" were held without any legitimate or official claim to the title, so Haines' title cannot be substantiated. At any rate, the continued cool reception given to him in his own country prompted him to go to Europe, where he was warmly and enthusiastically received. When he arrived in Vienna, he received the warmest reception of all; he was an immediate success. Little wonder, in the home of the graceful Viennese Waltz! It was here, as a direct result of his pioneering performances, that the so-called "International Style of Figure Skating" was born. It wasn't until many years later - in the first decade of this century - that this style finally came home to America.

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So in trying to keep jumps straight. . . I put them in a table of sorts to kinda think things out. Yes I know some people land with their left foot. . . but it is easier for me to think this way and swap it for the skater than deal with opposite or same. Let's just pretend everyone lands on their back right foot.



So my questions are, well, first off, how wrong have I got this? Second why are there no right inside edge jumps? Is there a reason beyond not wanting to deal with another Lutz/Flip/Flutz/Lip situation for edge calls? Also, is the Axel and evolution of trying to do a Toeless left outside edge jump/toeless Lutz? I am wondering if the front facing takeoff is just do to it being a pain in the donkey to take off that way backwards/too close to a Salchow.