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Thread: Stupid Questions Thread

  1. #571
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Very, very stupid and amateur question: do skaters get a bonus for linking harder jump combinations together?

    IE; Prior to 2010, Yuna Kim had a 3F+3T, 3Z, and 2A short program. In 2010 (and beyond) she had a 3Z+3T, 3F, and 2A short program. I know the base value is the same since it's the same jumps, but are there any additional base marks for linking a more difficult jump combo?

  2. #572
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gravy View Post
    Very, very stupid and amateur question: do skaters get a bonus for linking harder jump combinations together?

    IE; Prior to 2010, Yuna Kim had a 3F+3T, 3Z, and 2A short program. In 2010 (and beyond) she had a 3Z+3T, 3F, and 2A short program. I know the base value is the same since it's the same jumps, but are there any additional base marks for linking a more difficult jump combo?
    No, they get exactly the same number of points whether in combination or not. The question comes up a lot in the men's short program. Should you do 4T+3T and 3Lz out of steps, or 4T out of steps and 3Lz+3T for the combination? Same number of points.

    The scoring system has been criticized on this point. Some people feel that a jump done in combination should get a bonus. Others think that you already get a "bonus" for a combination because it allows you to work more triple jumps into your program over all.

  3. #573
    Landing 3As in my dreams! skatedreamer's Avatar
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    Follow-up stupid question on combinations: I always just assumed it was harder to do jumps in combination. Is that true?

    If it is, what's the rationale for not giving some kind of bonus for combinations? I get that it allows the skater to work more triples into the program, but if doing the jump in combo is harder it seems like "degree of difficulty" should be rewarded.

  4. #574
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    ^From what I understand, it's harder to do jumps in combination because you need maintain flow on the landing of the first jump to have enough speed for the second. If someone doubles/singles the second jump in their combo, it's usually because the landing of the first wasn't steady enough/didn't have enough flow out for the second jump. Someone with more technical expertise can correct me here.

    No idea why combos aren't rewarded much in COP. They were plenty rewarded under 6.0, where doing a difficult combo was basically like doing a harder jump altogether.

  5. #575
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I think the new Zayak rule about repeated double jumps is going to change the dynamics a little in favor of triple-triple combinations.

    Suppose skater A goes

    3Lz+3T
    3F+2T+2T
    2A+3T
    3Lo
    3S
    3Lz
    2A

    That's 44.1 base value (before second half bonuses) for a program that features a hard triple-triple, a 2A+triple, and a 3F in a three-jump combination.

    Last year Skater B could counter with a much easier

    3Lz+2T
    3F
    3Lo
    3S
    3Lz
    3T+2T
    2A+2T+2T

    totaling 39.2. Skater B is less than 5 points behind and can hope to make it up in PCS (she gains 4 points if she gets 8.75s to the other girl's 8.25s), plus skater A night drop some points in execution.

    However, Skater B did 4 double toe loops. Unless she can upgrade at least to two double loops, she is in trouble without a triple-triple.

    But Skater A's program is also at risk. If she doubles either of the triple toes she will lose Zayak points, too.
    Last edited by Mathman; 07-20-2014 at 06:28 PM.

  6. #576
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    Perhaps we'll see more 3?+1Lo+3S combos (or 2A+1Lo+3S) next season. A doubled 3S won't interfere with the skater doing two other +2T combos.

  7. #577
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    I don't like 1L in any combos. Very few make it look good. I'm sorry. I started a thread on this topic and the only answer I liked was Mathman's. Far to often it looks like a mistake. Like Mathman said the skater needs to put it down as if "yeah...I meant to do that...see...and now here is a 3s". Otherwise for me

  8. #578
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    Who was the first skater to wear her hair in a bun?

  9. #579
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    I don't like 1L in any combos. Very few make it look good. I'm sorry. I started a thread on this topic and the only answer I liked was Mathman's. Far to often it looks like a mistake. Like Mathman said the skater needs to put it down as if "yeah...I meant to do that...see...and now here is a 3s". Otherwise for me
    I AGREE. My first reaction is always that the skater has made a mistake!!!! lol

  10. #580
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    Who was the first skater to wear her hair in a bun?
    Katareina Witt?

    http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopo...1032127125.jpg

  11. #581
    Landing 3As in my dreams! skatedreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    I AGREE. My first reaction is always that the skater has made a mistake!!!! lol
    Yup, I'm with Icey, Sam-Skwantch & Mathman on this one. It usually looks like a mistake to me, too, but I'm not an expert by any stretch.

    Can someone explain the reason for putting in the 1L? Is it just to create a 3-jump combo w/o the difficulty of more rotations in the 2nd jump? Hope this doesn't sound too stupid, but this is a "stupid questions" thread!

  12. #582
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatedreamer View Post
    Yup, I'm with Icey, Sam-Skwantch & Mathman on this one. It usually looks like a mistake to me, too, but I'm not an expert by any stretch.

    Can someone explain the reason for putting in the 1L? Is it just to create a 3-jump combo w/o the difficulty of more rotations in the 2nd jump? Hope this doesn't sound too stupid, but this is a "stupid questions" thread!
    It's the only way to get on to the back inside edge to do a Salchow as the second jump in a combination.

  13. #583
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatedreamer View Post
    Yup, I'm with Icey, Sam-Skwantch & Mathman on this one. It usually looks like a mistake to me, too, but I'm not an expert by any stretch.

    Can someone explain the reason for putting in the 1L? Is it just to create a 3-jump combo w/o the difficulty of more rotations in the 2nd jump? Hope this doesn't sound too stupid, but this is a "stupid questions" thread!
    It's do the edge. When you land a the first jump, the landing edge is such that you can do a 3T or a 3Lo. By adding that 1L, the edge of your skate is such that you can do a 3S.

    Someone can probably explain what those specific edges are. That's beyond my comprehension.

  14. #584
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatedreamer View Post
    Yup, I'm with Icey, Sam-Skwantch & Mathman on this one. It usually looks like a mistake to me, too, but I'm not an expert by any stretch.

    Can someone explain the reason for putting in the 1L? Is it just to create a 3-jump combo w/o the difficulty of more rotations in the 2nd jump? Hope this doesn't sound too stupid, but this is a "stupid questions" thread!
    EDITED TO ADD: What Sam-skwantch and Mrs. P. said.

    The reason is to get on the other foot. All jumps are landed on a right back outside edge (for a counterclockwise jumper). In a combination you have to go right back up from the same edge. The only jumps that take off from that edge are the toe-loop and loop. So the only possibilities for a two-jump combo must end with one of these two as the second jump.

    But now if you want to squeeze one more jump into your program without violating Zayak rules, then you can put a flip or a Salchow at the end. But now you have to hop over onto the left foot for the take-off.

    Patrick Chan had a pretty good one. He managed to step and turn so deliberately in between that it did not look so much like a mistake.

    Something like that.
    Last edited by Mathman; 07-21-2014 at 12:29 PM.

  15. #585
    Landing 3As in my dreams! skatedreamer's Avatar
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    Thanks SS, MM, & Mrs. P for 1L explanation! Visualizing different edges is a challenge for me but I get the basic idea. More or less...

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