Random Figure Skating Questions | Page 39 | Golden Skate

Random Figure Skating Questions

taka

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 15, 2014
Wow, thanks for that! :clap:

The base value was 1.8 (senior free) so that tallies with the BV for the Spin Combination with 3 changes of position and a change of foot in the link, so that makes sense. No video of it, sorry.

Her junior free in the same comp had a FCCoSp3p4... so that would be a Flying entry, combo spin with 3 positions and a change of foot, level 4, right? Last year she did a deathdrop into multi position sit spin variations with a change of foot in her junior free so I'm guessing she kept it for this year too.

Is it just me or do spin protocols now look like someone just accidently leant on their keyboard? :laugh:
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
The new rules are out about flutzing and lipping and if I'm not mistaken things will be more lenient than ever. Or maybe it will be the same. Last year a lutz/flip take off on an unclear edge could be called with (no sign) and leave us :scratch: when investigating the protocols. That means someone could Lip and still recieve positive GOE and no sign leaving some people upset that it wasn't called when in fact some,most, or no judges called it. :bang:

My question is simple and maybe my first not stupid question. With the reemergence of the (!) sign to indicate unclear edge and not a required negative GOE.....will judges use (!) more than (e) which actually requires a lower BV and negative GOE? Is this so severe that most judges will side more toward (!) than (e)? I'm just curious because this is going to come up at some point.

Thought about making this a new thread but decided against it. :confused2:

Here is the actual wording..
2) Correct take-off edge in F/Lz: signs “e” and “!” indicate an error. The base values of the jumps with the sign “e” are listed in the column V1 of the SOV table. The sign “!” allows to keep full original base value of the jump. If both signs < and “e” are applied for the same jump, the base values are listed in the column V2 of the SOV table.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
My question is simple and maybe my first not stupid question. With the reemergence of the (!) sign to indicate unclear edge and not a required negative GOE.....will judges use (!) more than (e) which actually requires a lower BV and negative GOE? Is this so severe that most judges will side more toward (!) than (e)? I'm just curious because this is going to come up at some point.

The judges don't decide whether to award ! or e. That's the job of the tech panel, and they get to use slow-motion replay.

The panel then informs the judges of the call. If the call is e, the judges are required to give negative GOE. If the call is ! the judges are supposed to subtract -1 or -2 from what they would have given to the element otherwise, but the final GOE does not need to be negative.
 

gravy

¿No ven quién soy yo?
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
A tip for you - if you want to make things easier for yourself, don't concentrate on just the take-off edges. Look at the body position and the preceding steps! Sometimes they tell more about what jump the skater intends to attempt than the actual edges (in the case when a skater has poor technique or botches the jump completely). After some time you should be able to tell what jump the skater wants to execute before they even get into the take-off position in 95% cases (then there are those skaters who can jump out of unusual entrances and make things more fun :)).
Another silly tip - if you are able to, try to mimic single jumps off-ice, imagining that the left side of your foot is right edge, etc. This will help you visualise how a skater body will look like while they are executing different jumps. A great way to quickly differentiate 3T from 3F/3Lz without even looking at the edges and to never be confused by clockwise jumpers again ;)

Great advice! :agree:

That's how I learned to tell jumps apart. The flip has the 3-turn with toe pick assistance, the loop has the X position in the legs, and the salchow has bowed legs with the knees turning inward toward each other.

These two links pretty much helped me learn the jumps:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu81i6vufWA

^^ Goes very quickly so you may have to re-watch the video... many times! Haha, but it's a good one.

http://theweek.com/article/index/256528/peculiar-figure-skating-terms-explained

^^ It may seem silly, but actually try to get into the jump positions they describe! It makes it so much easier to point them out in skaters.

And third, try to watch videos where the commentators point out the jumps afterwards to learn. The British Eurosport commentary of Park So Youn at the 2014WC is an excellent resource. Her jumps are textbook, great camera angles, she does all the 5 triple jumps (and double axel), and the commentators call them out.
 

Darjaille

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 6, 2014
Great advice! :agree:

That's how I learned to tell jumps apart. The flip has the 3-turn with toe pick assistance, the loop has the X position in the legs, and the salchow has bowed legs with the knees turning inward toward each other.

These two links pretty much helped me learn the jumps:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu81i6vufWA

^^ Goes very quickly so you may have to re-watch the video... many times! Haha, but it's a good one.

http://theweek.com/article/index/256528/peculiar-figure-skating-terms-explained

^^ It may seem silly, but actually try to get into the jump positions they describe! It makes it so much easier to point them out in skaters.

And third, try to watch videos where the commentators point out the jumps afterwards to learn. The British Eurosport commentary of Park So Youn at the 2014WC is an excellent resource. Her jumps are textbook, great camera angles, she does all the 5 triple jumps (and double axel), and the commentators call them out.

Thanks so much for this video! I think following the preceding steps (now that I know them) will make it easier to call the jumps, I have problems even noticing which foot their taking off from, not to say edges and all that.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
The judges don't decide whether to award ! or e. That's the job of the tech panel, and they get to use slow-motion replay.

The panel then informs the judges of the call. If the call is e, the judges are required to give negative GOE. If the call is ! the judges are supposed to subtract -1 or -2 from what they would have given to the element otherwise, but the final GOE does not need to be negative.

I do understand this and tend to lump the tech panel into the same catagory and just say the judges. It might be similar to when people call a tissue a Kleenex. I'll try to break the habit for comprehension purposes.

Still...as I pointed out before the Tech Panel last year only had (e) or (no sign) for flutzes. I might sound stupid but I think an (e) sign could be given to an unclear take off which meant not all (e) were actually required to be be negative GOE where as this season it will. What I'm wondering is if the tech panel will be more prone to use (!) this year more frequently because of the severity of the penalty now associated with an (e). Obviously allowing some close calls that would normally be (e) to become (!) more frequently or are we going to see scores lowered this season and a lot more (e)? I mean do we now need to define egregious since that is the terminology used for applying an (e)? Maybe this really is a stupid question :slink:
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Just as a guess, based on US club competitions I've witnessed, I think we'll see more e than ! calls, but about the same number of total edge calls.

However, time will tell. Different panels may be stricter or more lenient.
 

gravy

¿No ven quién soy yo?
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Thanks so much for this video! I think following the preceding steps (now that I know them) will make it easier to call the jumps, I have problems even noticing which foot their taking off from, not to say edges and all that.

No problem! And yes, I agree with the foot take-off problem... it often goes so fast and then sometimes you also have to factor in clockwise spinners so it's much easier to just do the preceding steps. Funny enough, the jump I still have the most problems identifying is the toe loop (when it's by itself or the first jump in a combo), which I often confuse with the flip because it also has the 3-turn but takes off the other leg.

-----

And I actually have a question about a certain combination. Michael Chack once did an awesome 1-foot axel into an attempted quadruple salchow at the 1991 US Championships.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDfnYJcaw_M#t=58

And of course who can forget Jill Trenary's 1-foot axel into 3S?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eTF9_sTuME#t=92

Would this count as a jump combination or a sequence? I ask because it seems that the IJS treats jumps that land on the "wrong" foot as part of a sequence (IE, when the half loop is used between jumps). The 1-foot axel lands on the left inside edge allowing skaters to throw in a salchow or a flip as a second jump.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
It would be a combination.It just isn't worth enough points relative to the difficulty for skaters to make the effort to master.
 

StitchMonkey

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Skaters give a list of what elements they plan to do, those elements have a value. The tech panel than decides what is actually done, if I am understanding correctly.

So, if a skater list that they are going to do a say 4T, but then decides to play it safe and land a beautiful 3T, Do they get credited as a 3T or an under rotated 4T? How much if any would it hurt them to say they are trying to do a 4T but do a 3T rather than just plan and do the 3T?

On the other side of the equation, how would it work out if they were planning a 3T but then did a 4T? Are they allowed to try it on a whim if everything feels right? Would it still count as a quad? Would they still get scored as a quad or somehow a really good 3T? Would there be a penalty for deviating?

Put another way, could a skater like Jason Brown, who announcers love to point out "doesn't have the quad" and thus likely will try to ring every tiny amount of drama they can from whenever they see that 4 on his planned elements for the first time, avoid some of the pressure and attention of "first quad" by just listing the 3T and doing the 4T just to get the first time out of the way with less pressure? Would there be a consequence to doing something like that, either officially or unofficially (ie considered poor etiquette, or insulting or disrespectful or poor sportsmanship somehow)?
 

AsadaFanBoy

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 14, 2014
StitchMonkey those are really good questions. As far as I understand, the technical caller decides what was actually delivered by a skater. Whether a skater gets credit for what they do depends on not violating Zayak rule (repeats must be in combination etc.) and how many jumping passes they've used (can't go over the number allowed). And they can't go over the number of elements allowed in a program.

For example, the Zayak rule is why Javier didn't get credit for 3S at the Olympics and got edged out for bronze by Ten. He repeated a salchow and it wasn't in combination.

It can be really exciting when someone delivers something that wasn't planned -- if they do it well. Carolina Kostner did this at the Olympics in the short program -- 3F-3T and it was gorgeous. Kind of like a personal triumph captured in a jump combination.

If somebody planned a 3T but did a 4T to wow everybody, more power to him/her, whoever it is. Different things can work for different people. Maybe someone can be just in that moment and give it all -- like Carolina did. It's pretty great when it happens. Really special. When it connects with you, it's really poignant.

I don't know if there are consequences. I think it might have to do with how well liked a skater is, and how well executed that particular element was.
 

AsadaFanBoy

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 14, 2014
Ahh of course I post before I'm done. I could see someone listing an easier jump and attempting something harder in order to amp oneself/psych oneself out. Michelle Kwan used to save the big guns for the end of the season. Ashley Wagner tried doing triple triples at the end of a season (not the most current one) and ended up doing a triple-double.

I hope that helped :D
 

LiamForeman

William/Uilyam
Medalist
Joined
Nov 24, 2006
How is it possible to get (e) calls on both lutz and flip in the same program? Or I guess the question is that if you know you flutz and lip why not just reverse what you call those jumps? You've done two different jumps showing both inside and outside edge takeoffs. It's confusing.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I think it is almost always a mistake to change your program on the fly. As the saying goes, "plan your skate, skate your plan."

A plan can have alternatives (a) and (b), however. If Michelle Kwan hit her 3T+3T then at the end she did a split jump. If she missed the 3T+3T then she skated plan (b) and put an extra 3T at the end instead of the split jump.

Sometimes skaters put in an lesser element, like a 3Lz+2T, at the beginning of the season, hoping to work up to a 3Lz+3T by the end.

Or you could prepare plan (a) in the short program: 4T+3T and solo 3Lz, and plan (b) 4T (flub landing, can't get off the combo), and 3Lz+3T. This is tricky, though. You have to put a couple of steps before the 4T if you want it to count as your solo jump (and if you do, that's probably why you flubbed it in the first place), plus you don't want to practice a messed up 4T just so you can get used to doing the combination later. Also, your mind can play tricks on you and you forget how many combos you did, etc. Plan your skate, skate your plan. ;) JMO. Go Jason Brown.
 

kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!
Record Breaker
Joined
May 19, 2011
Got a question for you IJS savvy people:

So, I'm looking at the protocols for JGP Courchevel and I'm a little confused by some of the element codes. What's the deal with the combination spin? It used to be CCoSp4 for a level 4 combination spin with a change of foot. Now it's CCoSp3p4 or CCoSp3p3...

Here's Evgenia Medvedeva's combo spin: on the protocol it's given a CCoSp3p4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWPSW76THRo&list=UUbv3gsBXzIwotCt2JGySfJA#t=15

Do both portions of the spin receive a level now? Like the spin on the left leg earned a level 3 and the spin on the right leg earned a level 4?
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
It's weird. I've been :bang: a lot. To the best of my knowledge it is this.

CCoSp3p4 means. Change foot, Combination Spin, 3 positions, Level 4. There is now a V1 or V2 which indicates 1 or 2 requirements not met and a lowered BV. So that is why they now note the positions because you can do them and still not recieve full credit. Does that make sense??

In the case of a V1 or V2 you'd see this in the protocols.

CCoSp3p4V1 or V2
 

kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!
Record Breaker
Joined
May 19, 2011
It's weird. I've been :bang: a lot. To the best of my knowledge it is this.

CCoSp3p4 means. Change foot, Combination Spin, 3 positions, Level 4. There is now a V1 or V2 which indicates 1 or 2 requirements not met and a lowered BV. So that is why they now note the positions because you can do them and still not recieve full credit. Does that make sense??

In the case of a V1 or V2 you'd see this in the protocols.

CCoSp3p4V1 or V2

:bang: but I think I get it.

Using Medvedeva's as an example, I counted 5 positions: forward sit spin--broken leg variation--change foot to back camel--back sit spin--up to upright I-spin. I suppose that counts as 3 basic positions (sit, camel, upright). So does that mean the highest level you can get is CCoSp3p4 (level 4 spin w/ all 3 positions)?
 

jace93

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Just wondering... Some of you know what are the plans of Nathan Chen for this fall? because I've looked through the standings for the jgp and I didn't see his name, but I also don't see his name on the Senior grand prix circuit, probably I'm just stupid and wasn't able to find it, but if someone could enlighten me it would be very much appreciated...:bow:
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
So does that mean the highest level you can get is CCoSp3p4 (level 4 spin w/ all 3 positions)?

That's my understanding.

And yes, the 2 or 3 refers to basic positions in a combination spin -- two different sitspin variations, for instance, would not count as two separate positions.
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
Just wondering... Some of you know what are the plans of Nathan Chen for this fall? because I've looked through the standings for the jgp and I didn't see his name, but I also don't see his name on the Senior grand prix circuit, probably I'm just stupid and wasn't able to find it, but if someone could enlighten me it would be very much appreciated...:bow:

News of Nathan has been scarce, AFAIK. All I know is what was reported/discussed earlier this month in the Golden West thread (see posts #7 and #8).

In a nutshell: Nathan Chen recently passed his senior freeskate; his updated IN bio (which lists his level as Senior) gives his FS music for the new season; and he has performed in three Sun Valley ice shows this summer.
 
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