Random Figure Skating Questions

Maybe not a "stupid" question, given that it is about a serious subject. But, a worrying thought popped into my head totally out of the blue recently.

You know these skaters that switch countries and then gain citizenship. What happens if that country has compulsory military service?

It was the fighting in Gaza that put the thought in my head. I had known for years that Isreal had compulsory military service for all citizens (30 months for males and 21 months for females) when they reached 18. And I knew that all Jews were entitled to Israeli citizenship. But, I do not know what the conscription policy was for those that had "adopted" Isreali citizenship.

Take for example Polina Shelepen. She received her Isreali citizenship in March 2013, 4 months before her 18th birthday. So, is she having to do military service for Isreal during her skating embargo, even though she was Russian born?

After Dylan Moscovith split with Kirsten Moore-Towers, there were rumours that he might switch to Isreal. Dylan is now 30, but there is no upper age limit to conscription in Isreal. So, would he have had to do military service for Isreal, even though he was Canadian born and way older than the usual conscripts?

As it turned out, Dylan stayed with Canada, so it is just a hypothetical question in his case.

I don't want it to sound like I am picking on Isreal. So, I will take an example of another country that I know has compulsory military service.

South Korea has compulsory military service for all males aged 18 to 35. Like Isreal, the period of conscription is very long (varying between 21 months and 36 months, depending on which service you go into).

So, what would happen if Denis Ten decided to use his Korean heritage to switch to South Korea? Would he have to do military service for South Korea, even though he was Kazakh born?

I don't know about anybody else, but I don't want to see anybody being put in harms way just because they switched countries in order to further their sporting career.

It's an interesting (and worrying) topic.

CaroLiza_fan

CaroLiza_fan said:

Maybe not a "stupid" question, given that it is about a serious subject. But, a worrying thought popped into my head totally out of the blue recently.

You know these skaters that switch countries and then gain citizenship. What happens if that country has compulsory military service?

... I don't know about anybody else, but I don't want to see anybody being put in harms way just because they switched countries in order to further their sporting career.

It's an interesting (and worrying) topic.

CaroLiza_fan

Click to expand...

Citizenship brings responsibilities as well as rights.
No offense to the individuals whom you mention, but I don't understand why the military obligation of any athlete in a certain country would be more "worrying" (to distant observers like us) than the obligation of non-athletes who are put in harm's way for the sake of the same country.

At least an athlete who chooses to acquire citizenship of a certain country does so with her/his eyes wide open as to the accompanying responsibilities. (And if a military requirement means that an athlete does not apply for a certain country's citizenship, of course that is the athlete's choice to make.)
If anything, I would feel worse for a native-born athlete who has misgivings about her/his country's compulsory military service.

Sorry, CL_fan, but you know that I always hate speculation as to "what if" So-and-So skated for country X instead of country Y.
And this time you've really lost me.

golden411 said:

Citizenship brings responsibilities as well as rights.
No offense to the individuals whom you mention, but I don't understand why the military obligation of any athlete in a certain country would be more "worrying" than the obligation of non-athletes who are put in harm's way for the sake of the same country.

At least an athlete who chooses to acquire citizenship of a certain country does so with her/his eyes wide open as to the accompanying responsibilities.
If anything, I would feel worse for a native-born athlete who has misgivings about her/his country's compulsory military service.

Sorry, CL_fan, but you know that I always hate speculation as to "what if" So-and-So skated for country X instead of country Y.
And this time you've really lost me.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry, Golden. I probably should have made clear that I am coming at this from the viewpoint of somebody who believes that conscription is wrong in ANY circumstances.

I am a pacifist through and through, and my own beliefs are that NOBODY should be forced to join the military if they don't want to.

But, I was wary of actually saying this out loud, as a lot of members of this forum are American, and a lot of Americans won't have a bad word said about anything to do with the military.

Anyway, my point was that I don't like the thought of somebody obtaining a different nationality and suddenly finding that they now had to do military service just because they wanted to further their career. I was just using those names to provide examples of countries that had conscription.

Sorry if I did not make my point clear enough. It was 7 o'clock in the morning that I wrote it, after all!

CaroLiza_fan

I would hope that the country involved would have made it clear what the responsibilities as well as the privileges of citizenship in their country entails?

From this GS article, both Alexander Gaszi and Nelli Zhiganshina (born Russian, recently naturalized German) had military obligations.
http://www.goldenskate.com/2014/08/nelli-zhiganshina-alexander-gazsi/

The dancers, who are both members of the German Army, had to attend military seminars in Hannover, Germany, so they met with Lambiel on their days off in Dortmund.

Click to expand...

CaroLiza_fan said:

I'm sorry, Golden. I probably should have made clear that I am coming at this from the viewpoint of somebody who believes that conscription is wrong in ANY circumstances.

I am a pacifist through and through, and my own beliefs are that NOBODY should be forced to join the military if they don't want to.

But, I was wary of actually saying this out loud, as a lot of members of this forum are American, and a lot of Americans won't have a bad word said about anything to do with the military.

Anyway, my point was that I don't like the thought of somebody obtaining a different nationality and suddenly finding that they now had to do military service just because they wanted to further their career. I was just using those names to provide examples of countries that had conscription.

Sorry if I did not make my point clear enough. It was 7 o'clock in the morning that I wrote it, after all!

CaroLiza_fan

Click to expand...

Fine by me that you are against conscription in any form for any person, CL_fan. I did not and do not have a problem with that broad position.

But your point as stated in your second post continues to trouble me, partly for this reason (emphasis added):

I don't like the thought of somebody obtaining a different nationality and suddenly finding that they now had to do military service just because they wanted to further their career.

Click to expand...

The burden is on anyone (such as an athlete) seeking a different nationality to educate her-/himself in advance on the terms of citizenship, such as military service.

If someone (such as an athlete) went forward with obtaining citizenship without doing her/his homework and then "suddenly" found out about a military obligation, what would strike me first and foremost as "worrying" is the superficiality of the person's knowledge of her/his new country.

So I agree to disagree.
And I will leave it there [ETA, or so I intended ], except to say again that this latest conversation of ours is another example of why I hate speculation about switching nationalities as if the decision would be no weightier than switching from cappuccinos to lattes.

[p.s. As an American citizen, I must add that as with any other topic, the U.S. is home to a diversity of political views on the military. Plenty of Americans have plenty of bad words of their own to say about the American military as a whole. (Not about individual service members putting their lives on the line for their country, but about the military as a whole.)]

You know, it’s amazing how asking one question can totally change your opinions on a whole topic.

As you have all probably gathered over the past couple of years, I was totally for skaters using family connections to compete for a different country, so that they could improve their chances of international selection.

However, the conversation over the past 24 hours, brought about after I mentioned military service, has made me reconsider.

Golden has been saying that people that switch allegiance must know the responsibilities that go with their new country’s citizenship before they obtain it. But, I am not so sure if they do.

Put it like this. I can imagine the following hypothetical scenario:


In this hypothetical scenario, you can see how the fine details of citizenship of a particular country can be totally missed. Of course, not all skaters or coaches would be so casual when it comes to important matters like this. But, if you already have a lot on your plate, it is totally plausible that “boring stuff” like research and reading paperwork is not given the sort of attention it deserves.

Incidentally, the reason I picked Singapore for my hypothetical scenario is for 2 reasons. First, their skating team is currently only composed of Ladies singles skaters, so it would be a perfect opportunity for skaters in other categories to compete internationally. HOWEVER, Singapore is very friendly with Israel and, as a result, has copied the Israeli model for compulsory military service. Consequently, Singapore has one of the longest conscription periods in the world.


Doris brought up the example of Alexander and Nelli, and of them being in the German army. From what I can gather, this is not so much about doing compulsory military service (which Germany doesn’t have). This is more to do with getting funding for your sporting activities.

A lot of European countries (but not the UK) have programmes where the military will pay for the coaching and training of members who partake in sporting activities. Consequently, a lot of athletes join the military specifically to get this funding.

Of course, the people running the military realise that this is going on. But, rather than criticising it as a cynical practice, they actually encourage it. People seeing their sporting heroes in uniform is great publicity for the services. And it can encourage recruitment.

Because their sporting activities are their primary focus, the athletes are only actually on active duty during the off-season.

There are a few motorbike racers who are in the Italian Police, and our race commentators have told us that they only have to do relatively minor duties, such as manning the front desk at the station, or giving out parking tickets.

But, these minor duties are not necessarily typical of what athletes in other countries, or other forces, have to do. As you will find out when you translate one of the stories I have linked to below...

Getting back to skating, but staying in Italy, and Valentina Marchei is in the Air Force. Unfortunately, I don’t know what exactly she does, but the idea of her being a pilot does sound very attractive…! Anyway, here is a story about Vale on the Air Force’s website, and she is also mentioned in this more general story about athletes in the Air Force.

As for Alexander and Nelli, this is not a strange situation. From what I have picked up, nearly all of Germany’s international skaters are in the army. In the final paragraph of this story (about army members taking part in the Sochi Paralympics) from the army’s newsletter, there is a list of army members who were taking part in the Sochi Olympics. And there are quite a few familiar names! To that list, may I add Sarah Hecken, who posted this story on her website. And we all know that Robin Szolkowy was in the army until he was thrown out over the Ingo controversy (see Tatjana Flade’s story on Golden Skate)

But, I’m digressing.

Now that I have come to realise that there is more to switching countries than just what team you compete for, I am not as enthusiastic about sportspeople going down this route. Well, not to countries that have extra responsibilities like conscription, anyway.

CaroLiza_fan

P.S.

golden411 said:

[p.s. As an American citizen, I must add that as with any other topic, the U.S. is home to a diversity of political views on the military. Plenty of Americans have plenty of bad words of their own to say about the American military as a whole. (Not about individual service members putting their lives on the line for their country, but about the military as a whole.)]

Click to expand...

By the way, this does surprise me. Because, the way the British media reports things, we are led to believe that all Americans are universally supportive of the military. So, from what you say, it seems like I have fallen for yet another example of the British media manipulating stories...

I cannot imagine switching nationalities is done with "your eyes wide shut." In the US, it is a lengthy process where the potential citizen must have lived in the US for some length of time, know some basic English (if that is their your native tongue, then most take classes), and successfully complete a citizenship test. I assume that most countries have a similar naturalization process.

If an athletes somehow circumvents this standard naturalization process and becomes naturalized with their "eyes wide shut," it is they own stupidity and I believe that they deserve whatever surprises they may get. Remember - no one is forcing then to stitch countries and they are doing it for their own benefit.

Regarding media reports ... years ago I lived in Bermuda so I regularly watched/read both the US and BBC media reports on the same subject. Each reported the same event but both had different takes. I quickly realized that the truth was probably somewhere in the middle.

CaroLiza_fan said:

Put it like this. I can imagine the following hypothetical scenario:

A skater is getting fed up with not getting selected, and realises “Hey. My granny was from Singapore. They don’t have any male competitive skaters at the moment. I’ll apply for citizenship. Oh wait, I’m so busy training to get better that I don’t have enough spare time to go through everything. I know, I’ll let my coach sort it out.” The coach thinks it’s a great idea, as it will enhance the profile of their student and, consequently, enhance their own profile. But, because the coach has other students to look after as well, all they do is get the paperwork, and give it to the skater to fill in.

The skater fills in the forms, gets the passport, and is totally delighted as they now have a free ticket to Four Continents, and possibly Worlds if their TES is good enough. Then they get a letter telling them that they have to do 2 years military service…​

In this hypothetical scenario, you can see how the fine details of citizenship of a particular country can be totally missed. Of course, not all skaters or coaches would be so casual when it comes to important matters like this. But, if you already have a lot on your plate, it is totally plausible that “boring stuff” like research and reading paperwork is not given the sort of attention it deserves.

Click to expand...

What a preposterous scenario! You don't change citizenships like you change your underwear. And a coach should have nothing to do with the process. That's a family decision and responsibility. And if someone was that blasé and lax, which I find hard to believe, then he deserves what he gets. I mean, only a total idiot would switch citizenships without doing their homework first just to skate a 4C's or wherever.

CaroLiza_fan said:

... the conversation over the past 24 hours, brought about after I mentioned military service ...

... Golden has been saying that people that switch allegiance must know the responsibilities that go with their new country’s citizenship before they obtain it. But, I am not so sure if they do.

Put it like this. I can imagine the following hypothetical scenario: ...

Click to expand...

To be clear, the meaning of my most recent post above is that "[skaters] must know" the requirements of the new country in the sense of "skaters have no justification for not knowing" them.

Not in the sense of "surely skaters do know" the requirements.
I am not saying that your hypothetical scenario is 100% implausible to me.
But again, if the scenario were real, what would be worrying to me is that a skater was foolish enough to take a citizenship application so lightly.
The skater her-/himself should have "worried" about potential consequences before applying for citizenship.

If a skater has time to fill out the necessary paperwork and to provide any necessary documentation -- not to mention to show up in person, if necessary, for an interview and/or swearing-in -- then s/he has time to properly inform her-/himself in advance of a citizen's obligations. The possibility that such research will be boring to the skater and/or coach is simply no excuse.

I must say that I find it highly ironic that you of all people are willing to cut a skater so much slack when it comes to research, CL_fan.
You are the perfect example of a motivated individual who makes it his business to quickly get up to speed on any questions of personal interest. (Your detailed posts within the past 24 hrs re citizenship are Exhibit A. )
If a skater seeking a change in citizenship did not have the motivation to research a new country's obligations, any unwelcome surprise resulting from her/his complacency would not break my heart.
It's not as if citizenship requirements would be hidden away on an elusive site that only a professional researcher could track down.

CaroLiza_fan said:

You know, it’s amazing how asking one question can totally change your opinions on a whole topic.

As you have all probably gathered over the past couple of years, I was totally for skaters using family connections to compete for a different country, so that they could improve their chances of international selection.

However, the conversation over the past 24 hours, brought about after I mentioned military service, has made me reconsider. ....

Now that I have come to realise that there is more to switching countries than just what team you compete for, I am not as enthusiastic about sportspeople going down this route. Well, not to countries that have extra responsibilities like conscription, anyway. ...

Click to expand...

Pleased to read that you are rethinking your past enthusiasm.

Conscription is a reason -- but not the only reason -- that citizenship is a complex issue.

Often skaters will choose to skate for another country without planning to change their citizenship.

Citizenship is only required for the Olympics. Some skaters change which country they represent just to be able to compete internationally at all, without focus on that one competition every 4 years that they might not qualify for anyway.

For changing which country they represent as skaters, they only need to deal with the requirements of the new skating federation -- and the old one if they need a release.
(Yes, being a citizen of the new country can speed up the release, but it usually takes longer to get citizenship than to get a release)

Yes, if they want to change citizenship or claim dual citizenship for family reasons and/or to be eligible to represent the new country in that one big quadrennial event, they need to do more research about the additional requirements that change will entail and recognize that citizenship choices may affect their lives long after their skating career is over

gkelly, I think that's absolutely correct. The rubber meets the road when a more or less successful skater or team wants to compete in an Olympics. And when that happens, getting citizenship only seems to be easy in a limited number of countries. (Azerbaijan for sure)

I think of the rigors of being required to learn Lithuanian for Isabella Tobias
Of Mervin Tran hearing no way, no how could he be a Japanese citizen
The long wait time for Tanith Belbin to get US citizenship, not to mention needing an act of Congress.
Copley having to choose college funding or the Olympics.
Gilles discovering it was not going to be as easy as she first thought to get Canadian citizenship.

Mostly, it is not easy.

I do wonder what has been the experience of skaters who seek and get Israeli citizenship in order to compete in the Olympics. Did any do their military service? If so was it photo opportunity type service, or did they end up participating in usual army activities?

dorispulaski said:

I do wonder what has been the experience of skaters who seek and get Israeli citizenship in order to compete in the Olympics. Did any do their military service? If so was it photo opportunity type service, or did they end up participating in usual army activities?

Click to expand...

Mmmm. I know of somebody who would definitely know more about this, Doris. But I'm wary of actually asking them something like this because we only became connected on Facebook about a week ago.

But, can I ask another stupid question while I ponder over this?

I recently came across Canadian skater Brigitte Carroll (from Toronto, Ontario). Is she in any way related to American skater Frank Carroll (originally from Massachusetts)?

CaroLiza_fan

Distinct from Frank Carroll coach?

I don't know the answer...

Carroll is not an uncommon last name in the Eastern US. There are Carroll's in both sides of my dad's family tree.

shingalas said:

Thank you for the information, golden! In the future, it would be really interesting if this kind of analysis could become available to the public i.e. as another pdf released alongside the protocols. It would be interesting to compare speeds at the beginning of the program versus the end, and obviously between skater to skater. I would love to know stuff like how fast is Max Aaron or how long exactly is Han Yan's monstrous 3A!!

Click to expand...

Still more about Craig Buntin and his VeriSkate analytics (emphases added):

dorispulaski said:

Distinct from Frank Carroll coach?

I don't know the answer...

Carroll is not an uncommon last name in the Eastern US. There are Carroll's in both sides of my dad's family tree.

Click to expand...

Yep, we're talking about the same Frank.

Sorry if there was any confusion. When it comes to skaters that become coaches after they retire, my brain tends to take the attitude "Once a skater, always a skater".

It's just that there are so many sports nowadays where the athletes are being managed by people who have nothing to do with the sport. So, I like to make a distinction for those team members who do have a background in the sport and, hence, know what they are talking about!

I just love it when poachers turn gamekeepers!

CaroLiza_fan

dorispulaski said:

I do wonder what has been the experience of skaters who seek and get Israeli citizenship in order to compete in the Olympics. Did any do their military service? If so was it photo opportunity type service, or did they end up participating in usual army activities?

Click to expand...

I do not know about skaters transferring to Israeli citizenship, but my ex's son was going to move to Israel and what stopped him was that he was required to do three years of military service. I looked it up before, and there ARE many loopholes to get out of it. I think an American male of 18 moving to Israel just to spend the first three years in the military is absurd. But I'm sure if a skater can give the country recognition they could be exempt. Also, the mandatory military service is only used like 30 or 50% so not everyone does it anyway. I think if you have a special talent you would be exempt. CaroLiza, please ask your friend. It's a valid question.

I was rewatching Zhenia's FP from last season and I really want to download the second music playing. The name given in Wikipedia and Icenetwork says "Multiple artists" and sadly that doesn't make it easier. Both Shazam and Soundhound have already let me down, so, pretty please?

LiamForeman said:

I do not know about skaters transferring to Israeli citizenship, but my ex's son was going to move to Israel and what stopped him was that he was required to do three years of military service. I looked it up before, and there ARE many loopholes to get out of it. I think an American male of 18 moving to Israel just to spend the first three years in the military is absurd. But I'm sure if a skater can give the country recognition they could be exempt. Also, the mandatory military service is only used like 30 or 50% so not everyone does it anyway. I think if you have a special talent you would be exempt. CaroLiza, please ask your friend. It's a valid question.

Click to expand...

Legislation was passed in Israel in 2014 that is even phasing out exemptions for religious reasons. There are legitimate exemptions available, but the legitimacy of the request is investigated carefully. The vast majority of the citizens look down on those who attempt to use exemptions illegitimately to avoid service, and such attempts can have serious consequences in ones private life, in employment, for example.

Icey said:

Legislation was passed in Israel in 2014 that is even phasing out exemptions for religious reasons. There are legitimate exemptions available, but the legitimacy of the request is investigated carefully. The vast majority of the citizens look down on those who attempt to use exemptions illegitimately to avoid service, and such attempts can have serious consequences in ones private life, in employment, for example.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the extra info, Icey. Although I knew that people in Isreal who didn't do military service were looked down on, I didn't realise that the Isrealis were now clamping down on who could get exemptions. But, I suppose it's a sign of the times.

LiamForeman said:

CaroLiza, please ask your friend. It's a valid question.

Click to expand...

Incidentally, I did send a PM to my Facebook friend, but I have not had a reply yet. But, it's only 3 days since I sent it. I've seen myself taking weeks to reply to messages!

CaroLiza_fan

I just wanted to say I can't believe this thread is one year old