Random Figure Skating Questions

dorispulaski · Apr 11, 2015

BravesSkateFan said:
Why does a 'tano position count for an increase in GOE? It doesn't make the jump better executed, it just makes it more difficult. Shouldn't it increase the base value of the jump instead? This has never made any sense to me, but maybe I'm missing something.

QLutz said:
http://static.isu.org/media/166717/...and-technical-rules-sandp-and-id_14-09-16.pdf

a weird question:

page 103 says there may be up to 3 jump combos in the free. one combo could be 3jumps, the other 2 combos could have 2jumps. this would total 7 jump elements: all that is needed. has this ever been done by a skater? what would be the disadvantage of doing this, aside from difficulty? would it leave too much time remaining in the program?

Afair, at the different levels, there is a ceiling on the maximum number of jumping passes, and a requirement for at least one combo. In novices, at least one jump must be an axel. So the only reason not to do such a program would be that even a well executed single is worth some points, so why not do doubles or singles to fill up the extra jumping passes allowed?

cl2 · Apr 11, 2015

A stupid question... what are the rules for what elements/calls a technical specialist is allowed to rewatch in slo-mo? Do they see slo-mo of URs and edge calls? Do they see slo-mo of every jump of every skater? Thanks in advance for responses, and thanks for this aptly titled thread.

BravesSkateFan · Apr 11, 2015

dorispulaski said:
There is a rule that a judge should add +1 to what they would otherwise have given a skater for a jump. Treating difficult features this way makes some sense because the number of possible difficult features is very large, and even if the isu rule makers and system programmers could keep up with them all, for all the different jumps, it would likely make the procedures of real time judging or tech panel calling even more difficult and complex in real time.

I guess that makes sense...it just doesn't sit well with me for some reason...

Isn't a fall supposed to automatically garner a -3 GOE? Does this rule trump the +1 for difficult entry rule? If a skater does a tano jump and falls would he/she get a -3 goe or -2 ?

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 11, 2015

BravesSkateFan said:
I guess that makes sense...it just doesn't sit well with me for some reason...

Isn't a fall supposed to automatically garner a -3 GOE? Does this rule trump the +1 for difficult entry rule? If a skater does a tano jump and falls would he/she get a -3 goe or -2 ?

I love seeing Tanos but I don't see why they should be worth positive GOE or at least mandatory +1. In fact I don't like the idea of mandatory anything. I wish the judges were even allowed to award positive GOE during falls. I mean...not all falls (or Tanos)are equal. We have judges. Let them judge.

BTW...I'm pretty certain that negative GOE is the only requirement for a fall and it clearly isn't mandatory because I can think of a few falls that scored -2.

MaxSwagg · Apr 11, 2015

Sam-Skwantch said:
I love seeing Tanos but I don't see why they should be worth positive GOE or at least mandatory +1. In fact I don't like the idea of mandatory anything. I wish the judges were even allowed to award positive GOE during falls. I mean...not all falls are equal. We have judges. Let them judge.

BTW...I'm pretty certain that negative GOE is the only requirement for a fall and it clearly isn't mandatory because I can think of a few falls that scored -2.

I think there should be mandatory restrictions/deductions in the short program, but not in the free skate. I think the short program should be like the technical program, and then skaters are allowed to be more free in the "free" skate.

And yes, there's no specific GOE requirement for a fall, just that it must be in the negatives.

Mathman · Apr 11, 2015

Jaggerz said:
Do you have an example of one of these scorings?

No, sorry, I couldn't find one now. I do not have the expertise to attempt it myself. As I recall, in CoP-retrospect both of Sarah Hughes' triple-triples were underrotated. Under 6.0 scoring, that didn't matter so much and all was swept away by her skate-of-a-lifetime exuberance.

Edited to add: I just watched it on You Tube. I didn't see any underrotations. But then again, I never do.

Under current scoring protocols, though, every combination that ends with a triple loop is pretty much automatically downgraded by the judges no matter what the skater does.

The real controversy under 6.0 skating were the placements in the short program. Many people thought Irina Slutskaya should have placed above Michelle Kwan and Sarah should have been fifth or sixth, which would have given Irina the gold medal.

Mathman · Apr 11, 2015

Sam-Skwantch said:
I love seeing Tanos but I don't see why they should be worth positive GOE or at least mandatory +1.

I am pretty sure that there is nothing that requires a judge to give +1 GOE on any element. There are some guidelines which list 8 bullet points that the judges are expected to consider.

These guidelines are tools to be used together with the minus GOE charts. The final GOE of a performed element is based on the combination of both positive and negative aspects. It is important that the final GOE of an element reflects the positive aspects, as well as any possible reductions that may apply...

To establish the starting GOE (before subtracting the minuses) Judges must take into consideration the bullets for each element. It is at the discretion of each Judge to decide on the number of bullets for any upgrade,…

One of the eight bullets is "unexpected / creative / difficult entry."

So a judge could give a little boost to a skater for a Tano position if other aspects of the jump are excellent and if there are no GOE deductions for errors.

cl2 · Apr 11, 2015

BravesSkateFan said:
I guess that makes sense...it just doesn't sit well with me for some reason...

Isn't a fall supposed to automatically garner a -3 GOE? Does this rule trump the +1 for difficult entry rule? If a skater does a tano jump and falls would he/she get a -3 goe or -2 ?

It would depend on the positives and negatives of the jump. My understanding of the IJS rules is that the judge awards positives first, and then subtracts whatever negatives. So two hypothetical situations could be:

(Hypothetical situation 1)
Skater does a nice big tano jump from a difficult entry, completes 3 full rotations to land cleanly, but skids off edge and falls. A judge would count the following 3 bullet points: (#1) unexpected/creative/difficult entry; (#3) varied position in air/delay in rotation; (#4) good height and distance. This gives a +1 GOE for the positives. Then, the judge would need to subtract the negatives: -3 for the fall. The GOE is +1 -3 = -2. Since this is already negative, the final GOE remains -2.

(Hypothetical situation 2)
Skater does a nice big tano jump from a difficult entry, under-rotates and falls. A judge would still count the same 3 bullet points: (#1) unexpected/creative/difficult entry; (#3) varied position in air/delay in rotation; (#4) good height and distance, giving a +1 GOE for the positives. Then, the judge would need to subtract the negatives: -3 for the fall and -1 to -2 for the UR, depending on how severe the UR is. The GOE becomes either +1-3-1 = -3 or +1-3-2=-4. Luckily for the skater, -3 is the worst it gets, so the final GOE is -3.

Remark: the numberings #1, #3, #4 are taken from the list of 8 bullet points that can help garner positive GOEs, as listed on the Communication No. 1861.

TheGrandSophy · Apr 12, 2015

I wonder if anyone can help- when reading this site, there are so many abbreviations for technical matters, scoring etc and also for skaters and pairings. Some I can work out, but at other times I am bemused. Is there any glossary anywhere on the site for newbies / non-experts? I don't like bothering everyone by asking all the time.

QLutz · Apr 12, 2015

thanks gkelly and dorispulaski for the detailed answers! i understand now!

BravesSkateFan · Apr 12, 2015

MAXSwagg said:
I think there should be mandatory restrictions/deductions in the short program, but not in the free skate. I think the short program should be like the technical program, and then skaters are allowed to be more free in the "free" skate.

And yes, there's no specific GOE requirement for a fall, just that it must be in the negatives.

I knew there was some requirement, just couldn't remember what it was. Do you know if this requirement trumps the tano "rule"?

Mathman · Apr 12, 2015

BravesSkateFan said:
I knew there was some requirement, just couldn't remember what it was. Do you know if this requirement trumps the tano "rule"?

Cl2 gave a good explanation above, with examples. There is no "'Tano rule" (at least according to ISU publication 1861). Positive GOE is assigned at the discretion of each judge, based on a recommended list of eight "bullet points." Then deductions are taken.

For the long program the only restriction that trumps the straight adding and subtracting is that the final GOE must end up negative in the case of any of these errors: fall, two-foot landing, stepping out of the landing, touch down with both hands, two three turns in between the jumps of a combo, and severe wrong edge take off.

Krunchii · Apr 12, 2015

TheGrandSophy said:
I wonder if anyone can help- when reading this site, there are so many abbreviations for technical matters, scoring etc and also for skaters and pairings. Some I can work out, but at other times I am bemused. Is there any glossary anywhere on the site for newbies / non-experts? I don't like bothering everyone by asking all the time.

I don't think anyone is bothered by the questions, you shouldn't be afraid to ask =)

I know you asked for on this site but here's an excellent guide from Tumblr by some figure skating fans. There are gifs that come with pretty much every element and a guide on spin abbreviations, I give this to my friends who are new to figure skating. It's short and concise which is good because I like to babble a lot. There's not a lot on pairs and ice dance but people have always asked questions in the competition threads and people are quick to respond.

apgold · Apr 12, 2015

Here's a silly/dumb question for TSL fans.

Why do Jenny and Dave call Meagan Duhamel and Eric Radford Jillian and Bob? Cute nicknames but does anyone know where they came from?

Krunchii · Apr 12, 2015

apgold said:
Here's a silly/dumb question for TSL fans.

Why do Jenny and Dave call Meagan Duhamel and Eric Radford Jillian and Bob? Cute nicknames but does anyone know where they came from?

Jillian and Bob were/are the trainers on a reality show called The Biggest Loser where obese people compete to lose weight to win money. I never watched the show but I'm guessing Meagan and Eric are similar to them in some way so they gave them those nicknames.

ice coverage · Apr 12, 2015

apgold said:
Here's a silly/dumb question for TSL fans.

Why do Jenny and Dave call Meagan Duhamel and Eric Radford Jillian and Bob? Cute nicknames but does anyone know where they came from?

They are the names of the fitness pros/taskmasters on The Biggest Loser.

apgold · Apr 12, 2015

Ah thanks, golden411 and Krunchii! Don't watch TBL but I know who Jillian Michaels is, so I get it.

TheGrandSophy · Apr 12, 2015

Krunchii said:
I don't think anyone is bothered by the questions, you shouldn't be afraid to ask =)

I know you asked for on this site but here's an excellent guide from Tumblr by some figure skating fans. There are gifs that come with pretty much every element and a guide on spin abbreviations, I give this to my friends who are new to figure skating. It's short and concise which is good because I like to babble a lot. There's not a lot on pairs and ice dance but people have always asked questions in the competition threads and people are quick to respond.

thanks, krunchii. That is great.

KwanIsALegend · Apr 13, 2015

Just curious, I just watched the video of Gracie's 3 axel and saw it was done while she was in a harness. What does the harness do? Does it make the skater not fall or help them with the jump in some way?

gkelly · Apr 13, 2015

Mainly it makes them fall slower, so they don't get hurt.

If the person operating the harness is sufficiently bigger and stronger than the skater in the harness, then they can hold the skater up to prevent a fall.

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