Random Figure Skating Questions

Seminar paper question .

Under ye olde 6.0, the second mark used to be known as "artistic impression" rather than "presentation," right? Does anyone know when/why this terminology was changed? (Or know of any valid sources that explain this change?)

andromache said:

Seminar paper question .

Under ye olde 6.0, the second mark used to be known as "artistic impression" rather than "presentation," right? Does anyone know when/why this terminology was changed? (Or know of any valid sources that explain this change?)

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According to this book, the marks were called “contents of program” and “manner of performance” until 1959, when they were changed to “sporting merit” and “general impression." In 1961 they became “tecjnical merit” and “artistic impression.” Th latter was became “presentation” in 1994.

https://books.google.com/books?id=d...gure skating artistic impression mark&f=false

Mathman said:

According to this book, the marks were called “contents of program” and “manner of performance” until 1959, when they were changed to “sporting merit” and “general impression." In 1961 they became “tecjnical merit” and “artistic impression.” Th latter was became “presentation” in 1994.

https://books.google.com/books?id=d...gure skating artistic impression mark&f=false

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Thank you!

On another note, I discovered the existence of this book only last night while googling "artistic impression" to search for an answer to my question (though didn't think to look inside the book!). It's too late to incorporate thoroughly into my research, But I'm definitely going to read it this summer when I have the time. It sounds fascinating.

As to the why, I am only guessing, but perhaps the ISU felt that it was too hard to define or give criteria for judging "artistry." Maybe they felt that they had a better shot at evaluating what constitutes "presentation" values.

I don't really know a lot about ice skating in general, so one thing that really confuses me is when you have the skating pairs and ice dancers....how in the world do they perform the lifts where the girl has to stand on the guy's leg? How is it that her ice skate doesn't just slice his leg open when she takes the step up? Is he wearing some sort of guard under the pant legs?

Unite said:

I don't really know a lot about ice skating in general, so one thing that really confuses me is when you have the skating pairs and ice dancers....how in the world do they perform the lifts where the girl has to stand on the guy's leg? How is it that her ice skate doesn't just slice his leg open when she takes the step up? Is he wearing some sort of guard under the pant legs?

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Depends on the couple, I believe.

IIRC, Moir, White, Agosto do/did not use padding, for example.

White was asked about it. He didn't mention any protection.

don't ice dancers also have different blades? Like less toe pic and not as sharp?

StitchMonkey said:

don't ice dancers also have different blades? Like less toe pic and not as sharp?

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If anyone is interested I found this in the archives here at GS.

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?18658-Advice-on-Dance-Blades

I can't imagine the blades themselves would be less sharp but the hollow could be changed to a 3/4 inch radius or even a full 4/4 ( 1 inch radius...like a hockey goalie) I usually use a 5/8, 9/16, or a hybrid in between cut if possible.

I've heard of Kevlar being sowed into the inseam of pants in the thigh area and even heard of little gel pads similar to the ones people use to prevent/soothe nagging blisters.

I thought I understand the rules quite well, but seeing the discussion from 2013 Worlds made things very complicated!

I have a question about Zayak rule. I know you can repeat two kinds of triples and one of the repeated jumps must be in combination. And in order to repeat quad, you also have to do one of them in combination. However, if a male skater has a quad and all kinds of triples, can he repeat both a quad and two other triple jumps or he can only repeat just two jumps? For example, can you do 4T twice and also 3A and 3Lz twice? Or you can only repeat 4T and 3A, or 3A and 3Lz?

Alchamei said:

I thought I understand the rules quite well, but seeing the discussion from 2013 Worlds made things very complicated!

I have a question about Zayak rule. I know you can repeat two kinds of triples and one of the repeated jumps must be in combination. And in order to repeat quad, you also have to do one of them in combination. However, if a male skater has a quad and all kinds of triples, can he repeat both a quad and two other triple jumps or he can only repeat just two jumps? For example, can you do 4T twice and also 3A and 3Lz twice? Or you can only repeat 4T and 3A, or 3A and 3Lz?

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You can only repeat two kinds of jumps, whether they're triples or quads. So, if you repeat 4T, you can repeat 3A (e.g. Machida) or 3Lz (e.g. Chan), but not both.

The new doubles rule is separate: You can only do each type of double jump twice, but it doesn't affect the triples/quads.

Sandpiper said:

You can only repeat two kinds of jumps, whether they're triples or quads. So, if you repeat 4T, you can repeat 3A (e.g. Machida) or 3Lz (e.g. Chan), but not both.

The new doubles rule is separate: You can only do each type of double jump twice, but it doesn't affect the triples/quads.

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So just to be clear, if you wanted to try to kill yourself you could do

4S
4S+2R
4T
4T+2R
3A+2T+2T
And three more triples (other than axel) of your choice as long as they do not repeat. (i.e. 3Z+3S+3R - or - 3F+3T+3Z)

EDIT: Or even one Triple and two 2As just to really be weird. Can you do 3 sets of doubles?

StitchMonkey said:

So just to be clear, if you wanted to try to kill yourself you could do

4S
4S+2R
4T
4T+2R
3A+2T+2T
And three more triples (other than axel) of your choice as long as they do not repeat. (i.e. 3Z+3S+3R - or - 3F+3T+3Z)

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I'm confused about your notation here. In the five lines above, the +2R (you mean 2Lo in IJS codes?) and +2T represent jump combinations, but the + signs in the parenthetical just mean "and" as in the skater could do those three other jumps as solo jumps?

And just for practicality, it would be really hard to put a loop on the landing of a quad because the skater doesn't get the free leg swinging back to control the check out as he stops rotating. Even with triple axels that's a lot of momentum to check with just the upper body.

That's why when we see 2Lo at the end of combinations is usually at the end of an easier triple, or why we see +2T+2Lo more often than +2Lo on its own or +2Lo+2Lo.

And why we have seen attempts at 4T+3T+3Lo but never 4T+3Lo.

Also, if the skater isn't going to repeat the triple axel, there's no need to do it in combination. So why not do the combinations on the repeated quads, a solo triple axel, and then a three-jump combination starting with a non-axel triple?

Senior men get 8 jumping passes which can include two two-jump combinations and one three-jump combination, for a total of 12 actual jumps.

If a skater has two different quads (each performed twice) and six different triples (each performed once if he's used up his repeats on the quads), that makes a total of ten quad and triple jumps he can include. If he's trying to max out his content, and he's capable of it which a two-different-quad jumper probably is, he would probably put triples on the ends of two of his combinations. They can't both be triple toe, though, so the other would either be triple something-triple loop or triple something-half loop-triple sal or triple flip.

EDIT: Or even one Triple and two 2As just to really be weird. Can you do 3 sets of doubles?

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Not sure what you mean here either -- what do you mean by "sets of doubles"?

You can repeat as many different double jumps as you want, but as of last year you can only do the same double jump a maximum of two times.

And of course this becomes a problem if skaters pop their quad or triple toes to doubles by mistake and also plan to do two double toes.

gkelly said:

I'm confused about your notation here. In the five lines above, the +2R (you mean 2Lo in IJS codes?) and +2T represent jump combinations, but the + signs in the parenthetical just mean "and" as in the skater could do those three other jumps as solo jumps?

Not sure what you mean here either -- what do you mean by "sets of doubles"?

You can repeat as many different double jumps as you want, but as of last year you can only do the same double jump a maximum of two times.

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yeah i can see that - i was trying to save vertical space. . i failed. (and yes I mean loop for "R" it just seems easier to use single letters R and Z than having one random jump have two letter. It annoys my OCD shoulder fairy.)

so how about.

option #1

4S
4S+2R
4T
4T+2R
3A+2T+2T
3Z
3F
3R

option #2

4S
4S+2R
4T
4T+2R
3A+2T+2T
3T
3S
3R

option #3

4S
4S+2R
4T
4T+2R
3A+2T+2T
2A
2A
3Z

Are all three acceptable? Option 3 has the doubles I meant. Option 1 and 2 i did where the difference is that one uses the same type of jump (i.e. Toe and Salchow) for both quads and triples (option 2) and the other has different types of jumps for the triples (option 1) - i started to wonder if that could be a rule as well.


Edit:

Ok option 4 - slightly more practical.

4S
4S+2T
4T
4T+2T
2A+2R+2R
3A
2A
3Z

or option 5 (Salchow vs Lutz)

4S
4S+2T
4T
4T+2T
2A+2R+2R
3A
2A
3S

Edit #2, to clarify, I am looking at how much repetition they can do, not maxing points. That is why no triple-triple, they can only do it once, so it would not work for trying to be repetitive.

^ I think all of those options are OK. (Under the assumption that your goal is to be as repetitive as possible.

Yes, all legal -- 4 and 5 are probably more practical/less likely to cause injury in terms of landing quads without checking back the free leg.

That kind of repetition can be risky if the skater is prone to tripling planned quads by mistake or doubling planned triple axels. But as long as they usually go for the rotation and/or have a specific plan B in mind, they should be OK.

gkelly said:

That kind of repetition can be risky if the skater is prone to tripling planned quads by mistake or doubling planned triple axels. But as long as they usually go for the rotation and/or have a specific plan B in mind, they should be OK.

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Actually, StitchMonkey's (is that anything like a sock monkey? ) option 1 is pretty good on that issue. By not having a 3T or a 3S you can triple one or two of your quads and still be OK. Just make sure you get the rotations on that last triple loop. :yes:

@StitchMonkey
If you really want to maximize points (and kill yourself), you can try:

4S-3T
4S
4T-2T (or -2Lo if you're really crazy--it's more difficult than it's worth, but it has been done before)
4T
3A
3Lo-1Lo-3S
3Lz
3F

You cram in all the quads and all the triples this way.

So, looking at the falls thread...why do toe picks stick out so much at the bottom of the blade?

So obviously, it does need to stick out so that the skate can grip the ice on a number of skills, such as some of the jumps. However, I would think that on those skills, the skater is actively pointing the foot, so it would be the front of the blade that needs to be pointed. I don't know why the front bottom "corner" of the skate also need to be pointed though, to the extent where the point actually extends past the curve formed by the edge. That seems just like an accident waiting to happen (as evidenced by the videos and also, personal experience). Does it really affect those skills that much if that one tooth (or maybe two) that extends past the edge are missing?

Similarly, why don't they round off or taper the heel part of the blade? When I skate backward, I tend to lean forward because I'm afraid of the heel suddenly catching on the ice. I would think that a tapered or beveled corner, maybe just at the last quarter inch, would make the skate less likely to suddenly catch.

the bottom big toe pick will give you some drag and support, which is used in many manipulations. the design of the tail of blade actually may be different and there are indeed different styles. Michael Weiss even changed the tail so that he can do spread eagle on blade tails.
but as an experienced skater, those are not issues at all. it is a beautiful balance and compromise of functionality of hundreds of years of experience.
you can also customize blades to your like, such as change toe-pick, lift heals, skaters do whatever to achieve whatever they wanna achieve.