What are Aliona Savchenko & Robin Szolkowy's chances of winning the Olympic title? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

What are Aliona Savchenko & Robin Szolkowy's chances of winning the Olympic title?

SimplyLex

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 22, 2013
Do poeple honestly think that V/T will be given gold (or any pairs team for that matter) if they have 2 falls? Especially if the other teams all go clean?

They are Patrick Chan of pairs skating. They had a disastrous SP in Nice and still almost won the entire thing despite Aliona and Robin doing great in both portions. They are a lock for the gold unless the arena's roof caves in crashing down on their heads.

I would ask a different question: do clean V/T REALLY deserve to be beating clean S/S? (I mean, I do realize S/S have been having problems being clean for a while now, but nevertheless, I think clean V/T will always win over clean S/S.)

My answer would be no. I really don't see where V/T are so vastly superior. Their lifts are usually shaky or slow. Their twist is amazing, but their throws are 3sal and 3loop versus S/S's 3flip and 3axel. Both teams have amazing artistry, different, but equally great. I would say S/S's pair spin is also better, while V/T's twist is definitely better.

So where is it that V/T are so much better than everyone else, cause I honestly don't see it? They are great - but not world record breaking great to me. Especially with that hideous JCS FP.

I'll put my heart and soul out there to support and cheer for Aliona and Robin. I want them to be clean and I want them to win that OGM so badly.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
They are Patrick Chan of pairs skating. They had a disastrous SP in Nice and still almost won the entire thing despite Aliona and Robin doing great in both portions. They are a lock for the gold unless the arena's roof caves in crashing down on their heads.

Actually S&S had mistakes in both programs at that event. V&T did have a poor short, but they atleast had a perfect long which S&S did not have in either program. The close result made sense. At this point in time the judges saw the two teams as very close. At that seasons Grand Prix final V&T actually had 2 clean programs and lost to S&S who had a mistake in their SP.

I would ask a different question: do clean V/T REALLY deserve to be beating clean S/S? (I mean, I do realize S/S have been having problems being clean for a while now, but nevertheless, I think clean V/T will always win over clean S/S.)

At this point I would say yes. V&T have superior technical elements right now. In their first couple seasons they landed their throws low and S&S had stronger throw. Now V&T are landing their throws stronger and they are just as strong as the Germans, but they have a way better twist, better unsion on their jumps, stronger spins. Artistically V&T dont have capativating programs I agree, but S&S's programs last year were just plain bad, and from what I have heard this year will be no different. If both are clean V&T should win based on superior TES. PCS not too much difference between the two either way really. S&S are past their prime, and V&T who unlike S&S are coming into their own and getting better are simply a superior pair right now, even if the judging were fair and S&S were more consistent.


I mentioned this on another thread btw but S&S have had far more gifts and were far more the judges pets at one point in time than V&T are now. V&T have never had a win as controversial as S&S at the 2008 Worlds and 2011 Europeans for example. The 2008 Worlds was especialy embarassing.
 

SimplyLex

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 22, 2013
At this point I would say yes. V&T have superior technical elements right now. In their first couple seasons they landed their throws low and S&S had stronger throw. Now V&T are landing their throws stronger and they are just as strong as the Germans, but they have a way better twist, better unsion on their jumps, stronger spins. Artistically V&T dont have capativating programs I agree, but S&S's programs last year were just plain bad, and from what I have heard this year will be no different. If both are clean V&T should win based on superior TES. PCS not too much difference between the two either way really. S&S are past their prime, and V&T who unlike S&S are coming into their own and getting better are simply a superior pair right now, even if the judging were fair and S&S were more consistent.

But what is the point of figure skating? landing easier elements pretty or landing harder elements a little shaky? (come to think of it, it looks a lot like the Lysacek vs. Plushenko issue) I think that's the case here. For me it's like, many skaters can land a 3sal perfectly, but how many of them can land a 3a, even of a little worse quality? I think it's the question about whether the skaters should go for harder elements (S/S) or just focus on executing the easier ones perfectly (V/T). I must say I don't have an answer to this, just my personal preference - I simply love fighters and those who risk and push themselves more.

Besides, I still don't see that superior technique of V/T in some elements. As I said, their lifts often look like he's gonna drop her. Their pair spin is plain awful (to my untrained eye, that is). their SBS spins are great, I do agree on that and their twist is out of this world. But what bothers me the most is the "easy" throws.

Also, I don't know, but V/T somehow make me tired when I watch them. Like everything was so hard and tiring (which I am sure is the case, but it shouldn't show). With S/S I do not have that impression.

I do realize S/S aren't perfect and were held up several times in the past. I just wish they at least had a chance for that gold, which they don't, unless V/T bomb big time.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
V&T have a very small advantage on the side-by-side jumps. They have the 3Sal, yes, but their 3Toe-2Toe combo with worth less than S&S's 3Toe-3Toe sequence. If both teams execute the elements the best they can, then it's only like a .4 advantage for V&T.

The only other element that V&T does better than S&S is the twist, which gives them an extra .7 points (+3 GOE vs +2 GOE).

S&S do the pair spin a little better than V&T - Aliona has that great sit spin position with her leg in full I position. Their side-by-side spin is equally as equal to V&T good, at their best (2011 Worlds). On the lifts S&S are definitely just as capable as V&T, if not slightly moreso; Aliona can potentially hit a better position in one of the lifts than Tatiana is capable of.

S&S have an advantage on the throws if they can deliver them. 3Flip and 3Axel is worth more than 3Sal and 3Loop.

S&S should also definitely have an advantage on the ChSq - Aliona and Robin both have better extensions than Tatiana and Max.

End result - V&T should lose the technical mark if S&S skate like they did at 2011 Worlds, but with a throw 3Axel at the end of the program instead of a 3Sal. V&T should also lose the PCS, but this is where unfair judging will come into play and the reason why S&S sadly have a very low chance of actually winning.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
They are Patrick Chan of pairs skating.
They are not. Chan actually has difficult programs, so when he skates them well, he deserves good marks. V/T's programs are noticeably less difficult than some of the other top pairs' both in terms of elements and in terms of overall program construction, but you won't know it from the marks. Their PCS is higher than anyone in the men's discipline at the moment.

They had a disastrous SP in Nice and still almost won the entire thing despite Aliona and Robin doing great in both portions. They are a lock for the gold unless the arena's roof caves in crashing down on their heads.
Aliona and Robin did not skate particularly well in the LP 2012 Worlds, so I have no problem with that one ending up a close call.

To answer the question, S/S can only win if V/T have serious errors and/or if V/T won't compete.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
The only other element that V&T does better than S&S is the twist, which gives them an extra .7 points (+3 GOE vs +2 GOE).

S&S might get +2s in GOE on the triple twist but they should not. The only reason they do is they are S&S, 4 time World Champions. Their triple twist is just an average element at best, which many teams can do better, and deserves 0s in GOE most times.
 

skateluvr

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
I always thought Sand S were doing more difficult moves. I think judges love Tatiana's classic balletic style. I always like the Russian team, and I think it is pretty much a lock. If they skate and score like at SA, Robin and Aliona will likely have silver. I think if they fall, then maybe they concede to a clean S/S. I feel like the Olympic host country always picks up a meal somewhere. And the ISU judges sometimes seem to favor the Russians. Can someone recall the names please for this old brain of the team from Russia with the Horrid Aboriginal number? They won the bronze, yes?

I was like, oh well, Russian fed is indeed very powerful, and they were all so mad about Evgeni's silver despite it being a fair result. I don't recall who came in fourth, but I remember being amazed at the hideous costume as pieces fell to the ice. They offended a whole bunch of people and still won bronze. If they were from Mexico or ? some place with no federation, they should be placed 10th. So we must realize that graciousness to Host country is a given.

I think that Yuna and V/T are already tasting their gold medals.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Recent article about S&S in the german press:
http://www.t-online.de/sport/winter...enko-und-szolkowy-wollen-gold-in-sotschi.html

Steuer admits the performance of V&T at Skate America was perfect and technically at the highest level he has ever seen. Yet he thinks Aliona and Robin are stronger in terms of the difficulty they master.

Robin claims they have 2 best programs of their career this season, with new spins, new lifts and the throw triple axel.
I believe the Germans have higher technical content - whether they execute it is another issue. But really people we hear all this "pr" talk all the time though Ssquared could doit. How often do we hear its Cesario or Gold or Wagner or flatt will come back or Nagtasu will regain or whatever a lot is talk and there are only so many medals. Rarely are you going to say even if injured you are finished your getting weaker as a skater etc.
 

elif

Medalist
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
V&T have a very small advantage on the side-by-side jumps. They have the 3Sal, yes, but their 3Toe-2Toe combo with worth less than S&S's 3Toe-3Toe sequence. If both teams execute the elements the best they can, then it's only like a .4 advantage for V&T.

The only other element that V&T does better than S&S is the twist, which gives them an extra .7 points (+3 GOE vs +2 GOE).

S&S do the pair spin a little better than V&T - Aliona has that great sit spin position with her leg in full I position. Their side-by-side spin is equally as equal to V&T good, at their best (2011 Worlds). On the lifts S&S are definitely just as capable as V&T, if not slightly moreso; Aliona can potentially hit a better position in one of the lifts than Tatiana is capable of.

S&S have an advantage on the throws if they can deliver them. 3Flip and 3Axel is worth more than 3Sal and 3Loop.

S&S should also definitely have an advantage on the ChSq - Aliona and Robin both have better extensions than Tatiana and Max.

End result - V&T should lose the technical mark if S&S skate like they did at 2011 Worlds, but with a throw 3Axel at the end of the program instead of a 3Sal. V&T should also lose the PCS, but this is where unfair judging will come into play and the reason why S&S sadly have a very low chance of actually winning.
I have seen some world medalist ice dance teams with less dance holds than V/T's this year SP. :laugh: S/S have 3A but they are stopping their program and then doing that axel. They are doing nothing almost 3-4 seconds. English is not my first language. Maybe this video will help.
http://youtu.be/hevhXXyAqhE?t=5m11s
Why V/T should lose PCS? I don't understand.:rolleye::slink:
 

sky_fly20

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
typical whining losers whining about the poor S/S,
get over it, these two can't beat anything they execute nothing perfectly
its a laugh to even compare that S/S have the same

its not V/T they have been skating clean, they may have power presentation and their skills are big,
so you want big dirty trickss ? the 2 footed 3A no thanks
unless of course you harbor hopes of multiple disasters for the sake of the robbed S/S :laugh:
these two are the jokes S/S did not deserve 2 World titles and 2 European titles one for K/S
 

sky_fly20

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
They are Patrick Chan of pairs skating. They had a disastrous SP in Nice and still almost won the entire thing despite Aliona and Robin doing great in both portions. They are a lock for the gold unless the arena's roof caves in crashing down on their heads.

I would ask a different question: do clean V/T REALLY deserve to be beating clean S/S? (I mean, I do realize S/S have been having problems being clean for a while now, but nevertheless, I think clean V/T will always win over clean S/S.)

My answer would be no. I really don't see where V/T are so vastly superior. Their lifts are usually shaky or slow. Their twist is amazing, but their throws are 3sal and 3loop versus S/S's 3flip and 3axel. Both teams have amazing artistry, different, but equally great. I would say S/S's pair spin is also better, while V/T's twist is definitely better.

So where is it that V/T are so much better than everyone else, cause I honestly don't see it? They are great - but not world record breaking great to me. Especially with that hideous JCS FP.

I'll put my heart and soul out there to support and cheer for Aliona and Robin. I want them to be clean and I want them to win that OGM so badly.

did you even watch 2012 Worlds ? S/S had mistakes in both programs. it was V/T who should ahve won in nice
you are delusional, all your statements are a laugh

its clear to the naked eye V/T throws are huge, that merits +3 GOE's
S/S have average everything average twits, lifts maybe different but the air positionings are average and their throws are not that good compared to V/T
even if they attempt their two footed 3Axels. S/S wins as the most overrated pairs in history. its no use though you'll probably scream robbed regardless of their skates, lmao
 
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
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Volosozhar/Trankov have been extremely consistent so far and even if Savchenko/Szolkowy did skate clean (which isn't likely, given their track record, especially with a th3a) V/T's PCS and GOE have now reached ridiculous 'Dwhitevoir territory' levels and they are regularly being showered with +2s/3s and high 9s/10s, despite the fact their programs are not very complex (and it's not like they execute every single element to a very high standard either).

its not V/T they have been skating clean, they may have power presentation and their skills are big

Yes, V/T's have been much more consistent. But their programs are nowhere near as complex as Savchenko/Szolkowy's. Mostly cross-overs and element entries far longer than the ones S/S have.

its clear to the naked eye V/T throws are huge, that merits +3 GOE's

There's more to a jump than the height it gets. Often their landings are a little shaky and don't have a lot of flow out and Volosozhar has a tendency to assist herself with her free foot.
 

sky_fly20

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
0.1%

Volosozhar/Trankov have been extremely consistent so far and even if Savchenko/Szolkowy did skate clean (which isn't likely, especially with a th3a) V/T's PCS and GOE have now reached ridiculous 'Dwhitevoir territory' levels and they are regularly being showered with +2s/3s and high 9s/10s, despite the fact their programs are not very complex (and it's not like they execute every single element to a very high standard either).

V/T throw alone deserve all the +2 +3 GOE's the height and coverage of the throw alone is huge
S/S have average throws and their 3A are inconsistent and two footed at that

V/T have raw power and huge skills, with their huge throws, big jumps, great speed and amazing twists
S/S have what again ?
 

sky_fly20

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
There's more to a jump than the height it gets. Often their landings are a little shaky and don't have a lot of flow out and Volosozhar has a tendency to assist herself with her free foot.

can you explain to me then the godly S/S what their jumps flows are ?
I seem to recall Szolkowy is very consistent with his jumps and the overrated Savchenko gets to not two foot correct ? :scratch:
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
did you even watch 2012 Worlds ? S/S had mistakes in both programs. it was V/T who should ahve won in nice
V/T lost that event in the SP, as they should have. S/S may not have been clean, but V/T were awful in the SP and left themselves too much to do.

V/T throw alone deserve all the +2 +3 GOE's the height and coverage of the throw alone is huge
S/S have average throws and their 3A are inconsistent and two footed at that
No, height and coverage are not enough for +2 and 3 GOEs. You need at least four of the following for +2 and six for +3:
1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) good position of man at release
3) good air position of lady
4) good extension on landing / creative exit
5) good speed, height, distance
6) good control and flow on the landing
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure

Call me when V/T have a consistent 3F throw, let alone a 3A. At least S/S challenge themselves.

V/T have raw power and huge skills, with their huge throws, big jumps, great speed and amazing twists
S/S have what again ?
As I already noted, S/S do more difficult throws, and while the 3A is still a work in progress, their other throws are very good. They also put one at the very end of the LP, not three seconds after the halfway mark. They're fast and have very good skating skills, they skate harder and more original programs, while V/T are doing blah choreo with posing sections. I'd like to see V/T attempt an S/S or a D/R program, I doubt they'd look so amazing. They have some great elements, but if you pay attention to something other than the height of their twists, you'd notice that they are weaker than other teams in various areas.

If V/T weren't the top Russian pair going in to the Olympics in Russia after no Russian pairs had medalled at the Olympics in the previous games (for the first time in decades), their PCS would not be in the mid to upper 9s and their GOEs might come closer to reflecting what they're doing.

I was super excited to see V/T when they first paired up and thought they had a lot of potential when they debuted together in 2011, but their boring (at best) and tacky (at worst) programs, unwillingness to challenge themselves, and the way they have been overmarked have combined to make them decidedly less appealing.
 

sky_fly20

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
V/T lost that event in the SP, as they should have. S/S may not have been clean, but V/T were awful in the SP and left themselves too much to do.


No, height and coverage are not enough for +2 and 3 GOEs. You need at least four of the following for +2 and six for +3:
1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) good position of man at release
3) good air position of lady
4) good extension on landing / creative exit
5) good speed, height, distance
6) good control and flow on the landing
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure

Call me when V/T have a consistent 3F throw, let alone a 3A. At least S/S challenge themselves.


As I already noted, S/S do more difficult throws, and while the 3A is still a work in progress, their other throws are very good. They also put one at the very end of the LP, not three seconds after the halfway mark. They're fast and have very good skating skills, they skate harder and more original programs, while V/T are doing blah choreo with posing sections. I'd like to see V/T attempt an S/S or a D/R program, I doubt they'd look so amazing.
They have some great elements, but if you pay attention to something other than the height of their twists, you'd notice that they are weaker than other teams in various areas.

If V/T weren't the top Russian pair going in to the Olympics in Russia after no Russian pairs had medalled at the Olympics in the previous games (for the first time in decades), their PCS would not be in the mid to upper 9s and their GOEs might come closer to reflecting what they're doing.

I was super excited to see V/T when they first paired up and thought they had a lot of potential when they debuted together in 2011, but their boring (at best) and tacky (at worst) programs, unwillingness to challenge themselves, and the way they have been overmarked have combined to make them decidedly less appealing.

then challenge if you can do the big skills from your elements, I dont see Yuna attempting a 3A just to match with Maos
the way you say tacky you make it sound like S/S have some god original programs, D/R you mentioned, was that a joke ?
their SP is classic and their LP is different but then had S/S kated this it will be called a materpiece, :rofl:
you are delusional, you are just negating what V/T do best, really V/T are only good in twists ? :unsure:

stop whining and get over it
V/T have the upper hand in huge power and big skills

poor S/S , bohhoo robbed of their gold medal :cry:
 

sky_fly20

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
I was super excited to see V/T when they first paired up and thought they had a lot of potential when they debuted together in 2011, but their boring (at best) and tacky (at worst) programs, unwillingness to challenge themselves, and the way they have been overmarked have combined to make them decidedly less appealing.

then not only they will have to do their elements big/clean they have to find a god awful connection from this two
if you even think their so called being innovative is creative is a laugh, Szolkowy has a blank face and skates like a rock next to the overrated Savchenko
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
then challenge if you can do the big skills from your elements, I dont see Yuna attempting a 3A just to match with Maos
the way you say tacky you make it sound like S/S have some god original programs, D/R you mentioned, was that a joke ?
their SP is classic and their LP is different but then had S/S kated this it will be called a materpiece, :rofl:
you are delusional
S/S have a consistent 3F. The only way to get an element consistent is to attempt it; they seem to be getting closer with the 3A. D/R have very demanding programs - difficult jumps, difficult transitions and creative entries into elements.

No V/T program could have been called a masterpiece regardless of who skated it. This annoys me, because they are capable of so much more.

stop whining and get over it
V/T have the upper hand in huge power and big skills
Stop being a boring uber. V/T have a lot to recommend them, but they are not superior, let alone vastly superior, to the rest of the top pairs. They mainly have the upper hand in getting top quality politikking.

If you don't like people to contradict you, don't come to a general discussion forum, or at least stick to the fan fest section.
 
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