What would results at all Worlds and Olympics since 2000 have been had all skate cleanly | Golden Skate

What would results at all Worlds and Olympics since 2000 have been had all skate cleanly

kovarkovaelegant

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 24, 2013
What would results at all Worlds and Olympics since 2000 have been had all skate cleanly

Had everyone skated cleanly at each Worlds and Olympics since 2000 what would the final results have been. I think:

2000 Worlds

Pairs

Gold- Shen & Zhao
Silver- Petrova & Tikhonov
Bronze- Sale & Pelletier

Mens

Gold- Yagudin
Silver- Plushenko
Bronze- Weiss

Ladies

Gold- Slutskaya
Silver- Butyrskaya (mostly due to short program win)
Bronze- Kwan (maybe 2nd in long, but down to 3rd due to combined Q-short program results)


2001 Worlds

Pairs
Gold- Sale & Pelletier
Silver- Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze
Bronze- Shen & Zhao

Men

Gold- Plushenko
Silver- Yagudin
Bronze- Eldredge

Ladies

Gold- Slutskaya
Silver- Kwan
Bronze- Butyrskaya


2002 Olympics

Pairs

Gold- Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze
Silver- Sale & Pelletier
Bronze- Shen & Zhao

Men

Gold- Yagudin
Silver- Plushenko
Bronze- Honda

Ladies

Gold- Slutskaya
Silver- Kwan
Bronze- Hughes


2002 Worlds

Pairs
Some podium

Mens

Gold- Yagudin
Silver- Abt
Bronze- Honda

Ladies

Gold- Slutskaya
Silver- Kwan
Bronze- Suguri


2003 Worlds

Pairs

Gold- Shen & Zhao
Silver- Totmianina & Marinin
Bronze- Petrova & Tikhonov

Men

Gold- Plushenko
Silver- Weiss
Bronze- Honda

Ladies

Gold- Cohen (if she did triple lutz-triple toe)
Silver- Kwan
Bronze- Sokolova (only due to triple lutz-triple toes)


2004 Worlds

Pairs

Gold- Shen & Zhao
Silver- Totmianina & Marinin
Bronze- Pang & Tong

Men

Gold- Plushenko
Silver- Sandhu
Bronze- Joubert

Ladies

Gold- Cohen
Silver- Arakawa
Bronze- Kwan


2005 Worlds

Pairs

Gold- Totmianina & Marinin
Silver- Petrova & Tikhonov
Bronze- Pang & Tong

don't count Shen & Zhao who WD partway through

Men

Gold- Lambiel
Silver- Joubert
Bronze- Buttle

don't count Plushenko who WD partway through

Ladies

Gold- Slutskaya
Silver- Cohen
Bronze- Arakawa


2006 Olympics

Pairs

Gold- Totmianina & Marinin
Silver- Zhangs
Bronze- Shen & Zhao

Mens

Gold- Plushenko
Silver- Lambiel
Bronze- Buttle

Ladies

Gold- Slutskaya
Silver- Arakawa
Bronze- Cohen


2006 Worlds

Pairs

Gold- Pang & Tong
Silver- Zhangs
Bronze- Petrova & Tikhonov

Mens

Gold- Lambiel
Silver- Buttle
Bronze- Joubert

Ladies

Gold- Cohen
Silver- Meissner
Bronze- Suguri


2007 Worlds

Pairs

Gold- Shen & Zhao
Silver- Savchenko & Szolkowy
Bronze- Pang & Tong

Mens

Gold- Lambiel
Silver- Takahashi
Bronze- Joubert

Ladies

Gold- Asada
Silver- Kim (first in SP but not enough difficulty in LP to hold off clean Asada)
Bronze- Ando


2008 Worlds

Pairs

Gold- Savchenko & Szolkowy
Silver- Pang & Tong
Bronze- Zhangs

Men

Gold- Takahashi
Silver- Lambiel
Bronze- Buttle

Ladies

Gold- Kim
Silver- Kostner
Bronze- Asada


2009 Worlds

Pairs

Gold- Savchenko & Szolkowy
Silver- Kavaguti & Smirnov
Bronze- Shen & Zhao

Men

Gold- Joubert
Silver- Chan
Bronze- Verner

Ladies

Gold- Kim
Silver- Asada
Bronze- Rochette


2010 Olympics

Pairs

Gold- Shen & Zhao
Silver- Savchenko & Szolkowy
Bronze- Kavaguti & Smirnov

Mens

Gold- Lambiel
Silver- Takahashi
Bronze- Abbott

Ladies

Gold- Kim
Silver- Rochette
Bronze- Asada


2010 Worlds

Pairs

Gold- Pang & Tong
Silver- Kavaguti & Smirnov
Bronze- Savchenko & Szolkowy

Men

Gold- Takahashi
Silver- Chan
Bronze- Joubert

Ladies

Gold- Kim
Silver- Nagasu
Bronze- Asada


2011 Worlds

Pairs

Gold- Pang & Tong
Silver- Savchenko & Szolkowy
Bronze- Volosozhar & Trankov

Mens

Gold- Chan
Silver- Kozuka
Bronze- Brezina

Ladies

Gold- Kim
Silver- Ando
Bronze- Asada or Kostner


2012 Worlds

Pairs

Gold- Savchenko & Szolkowy
Silver- Volosozhar & Trankov
Bronze- Pang & Tong

Mens

Gold- Chan
Silver- Hanyu
Bronze- Takahashi

Ladies

Gold- Kostner
Silver- Asada
Bronze-- Suzuki


2013 Worlds

Pairs

Gold- Voloszhar & Trankov
Silver- Savchenko & Szolkowy
Bronze- Barazova & Larionov

Mens

Gold- Takahashi
Silver- Chan
Bronze- Fernandez or Hanyu

Ladies

Gold- Kim
Silver- Kostner (1st in SP, but 2nd overall)
Bronze- Asada
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Have both S&Z and S&S ever skated cleanly in one competition? I find it difficult to think that S&S are better than S&Z especially when S&Z are clean.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
2002 Olympics

Ladies

Gold- Slutskaya
Silver- Kwan
Bronze- Hughes

I don't think this would have happened; I believe Kwan would have won, Slutskaya silver and Cohen 3rd (with a clean 3Z-3T). Slutskaya had no chance of winning the event against a clean Kwan in the US. She out skated Kwan in the SP and lost decisively, even losing a few ordinals to Sasha. (Kwan had low marks for technical merit and still beat a clean Irina)
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
2002 Olympics

Ladies

Gold- Slutskaya
Silver- Kwan
Bronze- Hughes

I don't think this would have happened; I believe Kwan would have won, Slutskaya silver and Cohen 3rd (with a clean 3Z-3T). Slutskaya had no chance of winning the event against a clean Kwan in the US. She out skated Kwan in the SP and lost decisively, even losing a few ordinals to Sasha. (Kwan had low marks for technical merit and still beat a clean Irina)

Slutskaya lost the SP only on a 5-4 split. Hardly "decisively". While the SP results were controversial to some, Irina's short was also far worse than her short programs from the 2011 Grand Prix final and 2012 Worlds, both which would have won the SP in SLC very easily.

As for what the judges would have done between a clean Slutskaya and clean Kwan, it would have depended which jump content both did. However Michelle skating before Irina under 6.0, the judges would have had no choice but to leave room for Irina to potentially win, no matter how well Kwan skated.
 

CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
2002 Olympics

Ladies

Gold- Slutskaya
Silver- Kwan
Bronze- Hughes

I don't think this would have happened; I believe Kwan would have won, Slutskaya silver and Cohen 3rd (with a clean 3Z-3T). Slutskaya had no chance of winning the event against a clean Kwan in the US. She out skated Kwan in the SP and lost decisively, even losing a few ordinals to Sasha. (Kwan had low marks for technical merit and still beat a clean Irina)

What's the definition of "clean" here? No mistakes, full difficulty? Or just no mistakes and some watering down allowed? Irina with 3Lutz/Sal-3Loop would beat Kwan easily. Kwan's short didn't deserve 1st place anyway. I found her performance unimpressive and on tech content Irina beat her in every way: better height on jumps, a 3Flip that wasn't underrotated, a 3Lutz-2Lo that didn't have a severe Flutz (not to mention Loop>Toe), faster spins with more positions, and a great footwork sequence skated all on one foot(!).
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Irina had 2 mistakes in her short program. She broke the steps between the steps and the triple flip, and she on one rotation in her combination spin she travelled about 3 feet before recentering it. Kwan`s triple flip was slightly UR (only a quarter rotation or less) but that was almost meaningless under 6.0. Irina also skated very slowly and without her usual command (similar to her LP in that regard, except her LP had even more glaring mistakes and watered down content). She still maybe should have won the short program, but there was a case for her being 2nd.

I agree if Irina skated cleanly with a triple something-triple loop combo no way Kwan was beating her, even if she did a triple toe-triple toe. Just look at the very high LP marks which very nearly won over a 2 triple-triples Hughes even with her lame performance.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Slutskaya lost the SP only on a 5-4 split. Hardly "decisively". While the SP results were controversial to some, Irina's short was also far worse than her short programs from the 2011 Grand Prix final and 2012 Worlds, both which would have won the SP in SLC very easily.

What was far worse about her SP?
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
What was far worse about her SP?

Everything. The elements were weaker, she was much slower, and her last combination spin was terrible like I said. Given that you are the same one who keeps insisting Kim`s short program from the 2013 Worlds is on par with her best though, I can already tell I am wasting my breath.
 

CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Everything. The elements were weaker, she was much slower, and her last combination spin was terrible like I said. Given that you are the same one who keeps insisting Kim`s short program from the 2013 Worlds is on par with her best though, I can already tell I am wasting my breath.

Is the SLC SP the one where one of her hands slipped off during the Biellmann spin?
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Is the SLC SP the one where one of her hands slipped off during the Biellmann spin?

That is correct. During her 2nd Biellmann on the other leg her hand slips off and she ends up travelling (she already had been the whole spin) several feet across right when it slips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePYXpf4mKwE

Here is her Worlds short program which was her best performance of the program:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uIvHWQ7vyY

Her Goodwill Games, Europeans, and Russian National short programs were also all excellent.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Slutskaya's SP at the Olympics was barely worse than any other time she skated it that season. She ALWAYS had a break in the footwork before her 3Flip. The mistake on the combination spin was minor; the hand "slip" actually showed a bit of personality with the movement she made with it.

That program was simply bad. All 3 jumping passes were thrown in at the start of the program and the music was such a "wannbe lyrical" attempt that didn't have any kind of special choreography or interpretation to it. I would have given her a 5.6 for the second mark.

Also, a perfect Kwan was NOT going to lose. The second mark is the tiebreaker. Irina doing a harder 3-3 wasn't going to make up the difference. She would have needed two 3-3 combos AND two 3Lutzes, which is something she was never able to do. The results would have been exactly as they were in the SP - 1. Kwan, 2. Slutskaya, 3. Cohen, 4. Hughes.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Everything. The elements were weaker, she was much slower, and her last combination spin was terrible like I said. Given that you are the same one who keeps insisting Kim`s short program from the 2013 Worlds is on par with her best though, I can already tell I am wasting my breath.

When do I keep insisting that? It isn't polite to say that I keep insisting something when I may have said it once. Stop being so dramatic.
 

samson

Medalist
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Michelle Kwan would have won everything all the time. Always. And forever. Including Vancouver Olympics. You can't refute it. It's just science. End of discussion. ;)
 

CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
When do I keep insisting that? It isn't polite to say that I keep insisting something when I may have said it once. Stop being so dramatic.

I don't think it's impolite as much as it's just being melodramatic. I think we could all afford to lighten up; melodrama is part of the life of a skating fan!
 

TheCzar

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
If I remember correctly, 2008- barring a fall on her 3A, Asada also had two triple-triples? If we are talking clean as in, 'CLEAN' (everything credited and rotated with no judicial bias and reputation scoring)- surely, a 3A and two triple-triples should fare way higher than a bronze. Definitely even against two Lutzes, even if Kim had garnered enough +GOEs- we're talking clean, so surely everyone else including Asada would have gotten +GOE's on her technical elements?

Also, 2013. Asada had an 8 triple layout vs. Kim's 6 and Kostner's 7. I'd maybe give it to Caro in terms of Components just because its always a given for the judges' darling, but 8 triples executed 'cleanly' and with +GOEs should earn Asada sky high technical marks.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
I didnt notice the 2008 Worlds. I dont think Kostner would have beaten either a clean Kim or clean Asada that year, even going clean herself. She wasnt yet seen as a skater at their level. So I would pick Kim gold, Asada silver, kostner bronze for that year.

I agree the 2011 Worlds would have gone Kim, Kostner, and Asada even had all gone cleanly (and really well) though, although this case it would be extremely close.

A clean Asada would still have a flutz deduction and -GOE on that jump btw. She is not capable of doing it any differently.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Also, a perfect Kwan was NOT going to lose. The second mark is the tiebreaker. Irina doing a harder 3-3 wasn't going to make up the difference. She would have needed two 3-3 combos AND two 3Lutzes, which is something she was never able to do. The results would have been exactly as they were in the SP - 1. Kwan, 2. Slutskaya, 3. Cohen, 4. Hughes.

ROTFL it is obvious you did not follow much ladies skating at the time. The only times from 2000-2002 Kwan beat Slutskaya in a competition were when she skated sensationally and Irina made mistakes. Like the 2000 and 2001 Worlds where kwan skated probably her 2 best performances ever in combined technical and artistic strength, and included a clean triple-triple, and still lost judges to a subpar Irina who didnt skate cleanly, and landed less clean triples. In their 10 real meetings from 2000-2002 (I am excluding USFSA cheesefests which I dont even remember most results of, but have no bearing on ISU events) those were Michelle's only 2 victories these 3 years. Everytime they made comparable mistakes, or Irina sometimes made even more, Irina always won.

Just look at their other two major meetings of the year. Grand Prix final Irina lands 4 triples in the first long program, only 3 in the second, and wins over Kwan who lands 5 and 6 respectively. Yes I would agree that was a wrong result, but it clearly shows where the judges favor was at the time. At Worlds both skated cleanly with 6 triples, and Irina won the long program phase. So what on earth was so enormously different about the Olympics that suddenly Irina even with just 1 hard triple-triple wouldnt win over Kwan with none.

Tara with just 1 triple-triple beat a clean Michelle and Nagano, and the judges like Irina only about 5 times more than they liked Tara in the matchup with Michelle.

Cohen was also never going to beat Hughes in Salt Lake City. Yeah she did in the short but Hughes was never a great short program skater, and her short really deserved about 8th place but since she was World medalist in the U.S she was gifted a ridiculous 4th place. Cohen didnt do a long program even close to Hughes's Salt Lake City LP until atleast 2005. Her marks were also miles behind the other three with only 1 real mistake.

Lastly that Slutskaya got up to 5.9 on both sets with that lame performance (in many ways her marks were higher than winner Hughes who got none) and lost the gold by only .1, shows with her best performance her marks would have been through the roof, and too much for Kwan without a triple-triple to ever beat, even in the U.S.
 

CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
I didnt notice the 2008 Worlds. I dont think Kostner would have beaten either a clean Kim or clean Asada that year, even going clean herself. She wasnt yet seen as a skater at their level. So I would pick Kim gold, Asada silver, kostner bronze for that year.

I agree the 2011 Worlds would have gone Kim, Kostner, and Asada even had all gone cleanly (and really well) though, although this case it would be extremely close.

A clean Asada would still have a flutz deduction and -GOE on that jump btw. She is not capable of doing it any differently.

Asada's one of the hardest to judge what "clean" is - full difficulty, full levels, full credit or just safely landed jumps with possible < here and there? That season she landed 2 3-3's and a 3A at GPF and 4CC but at the former, she had a 2-foot on the 3A and a crappy 3F-3T while at the latter, 3F-3T was downgraded. That said, if she did everything perfectly (i.e. take her 3Flip-3Loop from GPF, her Axel from 4CC, her 3Flip-3Toe from Worlds, don't lose any levels) I think she would've won even with the fLutz - the score ceiling for her would be just around 140. Kim's score ceiling seemed to be just around 137-138 even with 7 triples including the Loop. At CoR Kim did about as well as possible hitting all her levels and scored 133 (only nitpicks being a scratchy 3Lutz and no 3 jump combo).

Until the Olympic season it was close though. It depends on whether you define clean Kim as including a 3Loop or not and whether or not you define clean Asada as including 3A and both 3-3s (2008) or 2 3As and a 3-3 (2009) - Kim gave up on her 7-triple program by Worlds both seasons and by 2009 Worlds Asada had given up on her more ambitious layout.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
I define clean as both landing everything they have planned at a given time without error. So that would mean no < calls for Mao, despite her being heavily prone to them, and of course no triple loop after 2008 for Kim. It would not discount a flutz for Mao, as that is the only lutz jump she is capable of doing and she chooses to include the triple flutz in her programs. It would not require every jump to get 1 point or more in GOE, something Mao especialy struggles with even on a good day.

Looking at them over the years I can comfortably say a clean Kim easily beats a clean Mao in any of 2009, 2010, or 2011, regardless of whether Mao has a higher base value. 2008 and 2013 would have been fairly close, although I would still guess Kim winning. 2007 would almost certainly be Mao. The closest barometer in 2008 was the December 2007 Grand Prix final where Mao did a clean long program with a triple axel and 2 triple-triples, 6 points higher base value than Kim, and still on the LP by only 1 point over Kim who fell on her triple loop. Mao's score there was 133 and change, so I would disagree she had a score ceiling of 140 around then.
 

CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
I define clean as both landing everything they have planned at a given time without error. So that would mean no < calls for Mao, despite her being heavily prone to them, and of course no triple loop after 2008 for Kim. It would not discount a flutz for Mao, as that is the only lutz jump she is capable of doing and she chooses to include the triple flutz in her programs. It would not require every jump to get 1 point or more in GOE, something Mao especialy struggles with even on a good day.

Looking at them over the years I can comfortably say a clean Kim easily beats a clean Mao in any of 2009, 2010, or 2011, regardless of whether Mao has a higher base value. 2008 and 2013 would have been fairly close, although I would still guess Kim winning. 2007 would almost certainly be Mao. The closest barometer in 2008 was the December 2007 Grand Prix final where Mao did a clean long program with a triple axel and 2 triple-triples, 6 points higher base value than Kim, and still on the LP by only 1 point over Kim who fell on her triple loop. Mao's score there was 133 and change, so I would disagree she had a score ceiling of 140 around then.

All right; if +GOE isn't necessary for "clean" then yeah, in 2008 clean Kim could edge out clean Mao; the 140 ceiling I mentioned would include the best GOE she got for each of the 3A/3-3's, 3 Lvl4 spins and 1 Lvl3 SS & spin. Still the -2 flutz. And in 2009/2010, clean Kim >> clean Mao by probably 15+ points and in 2011 a clean Kim was likely a good 5 points higher than a clean Mao (which was impossible in 2011 anyway).
 
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