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Thread: Least Talented/Worthy Olympic Champion(s) ever?

  1. #76
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Whoa, Scott Hamilton "untalented" and "unworthy" ro join the ranks of Olympic champions? True, he did not skate his best in the free program, but after the figures competition the title was not in jeopardy. As for his "worthiness," this four-time world champion went on to serve as the point man for men's figure skating in the U.S. for decades. Still is, in fact.

    In general, a close contest that could go either way does not make someone untalented or unworthy. Neither does a competition where a surprising upstart jumps up and steals the thunder from the pre-event favorite. That's why figure skating is a sport.

    Exactly. While if you threw out figures Scott would've been lower in the rankings, figures was a big thing back then and it wasn't like this news was kept from Orser. 84 wasn't his first winter games... so, while it's frustrating that Scott won basically on one third of the event, it's understandable. it was FIGURE skating after all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    Exactly. While if you threw out figures Scott would've been lower in the rankings, figures was a big thing back then and it wasn't like this news was kept from Orser. 84 wasn't his first winter games... so, while it's frustrating that Scott won basically on one third of the event, it's understandable. it was FIGURE skating after all.
    Yes, the top skaters spent more time training figures than the jumps at that time, which I think is why you saw the ladies technical bar rise dramatically after figures were eliminated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    figures was a big thing back then and it wasn't like this news was kept from Orser. 84 wasn't his first winter games...
    1984 was Orser's first Olympics. But no, the competition structure was not a surprise to him, was not different at the Olympics than any other event he'd been competing in for the years he'd already been going to senior internationals.

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    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    The thing is...Scott Hamilton might have to deserved to be as low as 7th in the LP at that Olympics. He definitely shouldn't have been higher than 4th when compared to the performances I've seen of Orser, Boitano, and Cerne. Then there was also Fadeev, Kotin, and Sabovcik, whom I haven't seen full performances of. However, from what I know, Fadeev was doing ALL the jumps and actually landed a slightly two-footed Quad at that event (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlIfwwq-BUo). He must have had a fall to place only 7th, but he probably still landed 5 Triples + that solid Quad attempt, which is way beyond Hamilton's offering. Kotin was a great freestyle skater and always undermarked throughout his whole career. Sabovcik landed 6 Triples including a Triple Axel, I'm told.

    Anyway, if Hamilton was placed as 3rd in SP and 4th LP, that already would be enough to lose to Brian Orser placing 1st in the SP and 1st in the LP. So, Orser is definitely the REAL 1984 Olympic Champion in my mind.

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    I'm beginning to get uncomfortable with the idea of a "least deserving" Olympic winner (I was happy for the first page or two, but now the negativity of the idea is making me squirm). But even if I were still feeling enthusiastic about this topic, I can't think of Scott that way. He didn't just show up out of nowhere and win. He wasn't at his best in the 1984 Games, it's true, but he won by the numbers. Additionally, he was a major skater with several consecutive world championships by that time. (Had he won just three at that point, or all four of his WC's?) So his qualifications overall were very high. Whether people think that Orser should have won on that night is a different story, but Scott wasn't exactly untalented.

  6. #81
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    I don't think this thread should have mixed "talented" and "worthy". They are very different things. Hamilton was definitely talented but I can't say he was worthy at that championship. He was outskated by Orser and Boitano in the SP and he simply blew it in the LP. That's just the way it went.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    The thing is...Scott Hamilton might have to deserved to be as low as 7th in the LP at that Olympics. He definitely shouldn't have been higher than 4th when compared to the performances I've seen of Orser, Boitano, and Cerne. Then there was also Fadeev, Kotin, and Sabovcik, whom I haven't seen full performances of. However, from what I know, Fadeev was doing ALL the jumps and actually landed a slightly two-footed Quad at that event (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlIfwwq-BUo). He must have had a fall to place only 7th, but he probably still landed 5 Triples + that solid Quad attempt, which is way beyond Hamilton's offering. Kotin was a great freestyle skater and always undermarked throughout his whole career. Sabovcik landed 6 Triples including a Triple Axel, I'm told.

    Anyway, if Hamilton was placed as 3rd in SP and 4th LP, that already would be enough to lose to Brian Orser placing 1st in the SP and 1st in the LP. So, Orser is definitely the REAL 1984 Olympic Champion in my mind.
    I agree. Two judges actually did place Hamilton 5th in the LP which would have lost him the gold, which shows that such a placing was in no ways far fetched. Not just one, but two judges, had the guts to place him there. Of course most of the judges held up 3 time World Champion Hamilton, and thus finished 2nd in the LP to keep the gold.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    I think pairs could have gone either way, but G&G were so good that they deserved high marks on both technical and presentation for the high level skills they exhibited. Had M&D won I could see why as well. Mens was very clear-cut; Elvis only did 6 triples IIRC with one popped axel, and Urmanov did 7, one with a turnout. Even the CAN judge placed Alexi ahead.
    I think the only clearly wrong result was the ladies.

    The dance event there are arguments for and against each of G&P, U&Z, or T&D winning.

    Pairs could have gone either way between G&G and M&D.

    Mens could have gone either way between Stojko and Urmanov. There are strong cases for Stojko to have possibly won as he had a triple axel-triple toe which Urmanov had no triple-triple, Stojko had much better spins, better footwork, and his program did not have long rest periods like Urmanov's did. Actually Urmanov had 8 triples and Stojko 7, but Urmanov's extra triple was just a second triple toe which might not have even counted as it was done in a sort of sequence to end, and Urmanov had an obvious error on one of his triples- the triple flip, which Stojko did not (he had a singled axel but then threw in the triple axel-triple toe in place of the planned quad).

    Stojko easily won the technical mark, but Urmanov won by much higher presentation scores.

  9. #84
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    I'm beginning to get uncomfortable with the idea of a "least deserving" Olympic winner (I was happy for the first page or two, but now the negativity of the idea is making me squirm). But even if I were still feeling enthusiastic about this topic, I can't think of Scott that way. He didn't just show up out of nowhere and win. He wasn't at his best in the 1984 Games, it's true, but he won by the numbers. Additionally, he was a major skater with several consecutive world championships by that time. (Had he won just three at that point, or all four of his WC's?) So his qualifications overall were very high. Whether people think that Orser should have won on that night is a different story, but Scott wasn't exactly untalented.
    He was a three time World Champ at the time of the 84 Games, he won his fourth the month after his Olympic Title.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I seem to remember Elena Sokolova doing some about the same time, but I can't quickly find on youtube.

    I don't remember 3-3-2 or 3-2-2 before then. 2-2-2 seemed to be pretty common in the early 90s and probably 80s from juniors or lower level seniors who didn't have enough (or any) triples to fill their programs.

    2A or triple - half loop - 2S or 2F or rarely 3S was not unknown.

    Nicole Bobek once did something (one-foot)1A - 3S - 2T.
    WAY back in the day, I'm almost certain that Elaine Zayak did at 3T-2T-2T, at a time when triples of any kind were only performed by a very few elite women.

    I'll try to scrounge around You Tube to confirm when I get a chance.

  11. #86
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Zayak did 3Toe+2Toe+2Loop in 1984.

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    I'm most upset about M/D losing to G/G in 94. What the eff!
    M/D had better and harder programs, and they were clean. If their programs are graded under CoP, M/D would have crushed G/G.

    One of the most outrageous judging event in the history of the sport. G/G aren't worthy. They are talented, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    I'm most upset about M/D losing to G/G in 94. What the eff!
    M/D had better and harder programs, and they were clean. If their programs are graded under CoP, M/D would have crushed G/G.

    One of the most outrageous judging event in the history of the sport. G/G aren't worthy. They are talented, though.
    Olympic champions and 4 time World champions and legends of the sport and they weren't worthy?

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    Olympic champions and 4 time World champions and legends of the sport and they weren't worthy?
    I agree. Even if you disagree with the decision of the judges, the winner is not "unworthy."

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    From 1980 until he retired in 1984, Scott Hamilton never finished lower than
    1st at any competition. I'd say that makes him pretty "worthy."

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