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Thread: Least Talented/Worthy Olympic Champion(s) ever?

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    I'm most upset about M/D losing to G/G in 94. What the eff!
    M/D had better and harder programs, and they were clean. If their programs are graded under CoP, M/D would have crushed G/G.

    One of the most outrageous judging event in the history of the sport. G/G aren't worthy. They are talented, though.
    M/D have weaker lifts, twists, throws, and death spirals, basically all the pair technical elements, than not only G&G but even Brasseur & Eisler and Shishkova & Naumov who finished 3rd and 4th. Compared to G&G they also have less speed, less edge and basic skating quality, and her extensions are not as good as Katia.

    The result could have gone either way but the superior overall quality of G&G, and that M&D's pair elements weren't up to snuff with other top teams, was enough to justify G&G's win.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    Olympic champions and 4 time World champions and legends of the sport and they weren't worthy?
    Worthy of that Olympic Championship in 1994? No, they weren't. Especially when there are a superior team doing superior programs cleanly.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    I don't think this thread should have mixed "talented" and "worthy". They are very different things. Hamilton was definitely talented but I can't say he was worthy at that championship. He was outskated by Orser and Boitano in the SP and he simply blew it in the LP. That's just the way it went.
    I started the thread and did not intend to mix the two but actually to allow people to separate them out. I was open to answers on both least talented and least worthy. In some cases these are one and the same thing, but in many cases they are not.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by kovarkovaelegant View Post
    M/D have weaker lifts, twists, throws, and death spirals, basically all the pair technical elements, than not only G&G but even Brasseur & Eisler and Shishkova & Naumov who finished 3rd and 4th. Compared to G&G they also have less speed, less edge and basic skating quality, and her extensions are not as good as Katia.

    The result could have gone either way but the superior overall quality of G&G, and that M&D's pair elements weren't up to snuff with other top teams, was enough to justify G&G's win.
    I completely agree. In general, I do not favor clean programs beating very minorly flawed programs if the overall skating of the flawed program is better. and G & G were peerless in their speed, line, extension, and connection.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Zayak did 3Toe+2Toe+2Loop in 1984.
    Even earlier than that, Blades.

    1980 US Nats LP. Check about the 3:40 mark for the combo you cited. She was 14. Impressively, this program also featured a 2A-3T, which many women today would like to have in their arsenals.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNB3las_0Wk

    As I was rewatching this program, I am somewhat surprised that her artistry, while admittedly on the rough side and needed some maturity, wasn't nearly as bad as I remembered.

    She seems to have been a very charming young girl.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by wordsworthgirl View Post
    I completely agree. In general, I do not favor clean programs beating very minorly flawed programs if the overall skating of the flawed program is better. and G & G were peerless in their speed, line, extension, and connection.
    To add to this, I am a huge fan of M & D and think their program was amazing too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I agree. Even if you disagree with the decision of the judges, the winner is not "unworthy."
    Agreed. Unworthy is in my mind more like an Oksana or a Sarah Hughes.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by kovarkovaelegant View Post
    M/D have weaker lifts, twists, throws, and death spirals, basically all the pair technical elements, than not only G&G but even Brasseur & Eisler and Shishkova & Naumov who finished 3rd and 4th. Compared to G&G they also have less speed, less edge and basic skating quality, and her extensions are not as good as Katia.
    Natalia's extensions are not as good as Katia's? Ok, whatever.

    Both twists would be level 1 in today standard. No real difference in GOE. Maybe additional +1 for G/G on the twist.
    Less speed? Go watch it again.

    Better throw? 2A throw with problem on the landing is a better throw? What are you smoking?

    Better spins? Hello, G/G were out of sync in SBS spins.

    Program is super generic. Nothing's special, nothing's standing out. No SBS triple. 1A half loop 1T? Seriously?

    In the new code of point, M/D would have beat them by 20 points. Go and watch the videos again.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by wordsworthgirl View Post
    Agreed. Unworthy is in my mind more like an Oksana or a Sarah Hughes.
    I don't think we can just say, well I thought the other guy was better, so to me the winner isn't worthy. This is a sports contest. Sports have scoring rules.

    Where did Sarah Hughes "deserve" to place in the short program? Michelle got five first place ordinals from the nine judges -- that's first in any ordinal scoring system. Irina was clear second with four firsts, two seconds, and three thirds (from the three acknowledged "Kwan judges" on the panel, USA, Germany, and Italy). Many people thought Irina should have won the SP, and four of the judges agreed. But not five.

    Sarah's ordinals were 4. 4. 4. 5. 5. 5. 5. 6. 10 (from the Russian judge ) Well, that averages to 5.3. But you can't average ordinals. There is no such thing as 5.3-th place (I mean 5.3-rd place ). The scoring system in place at these Olympics was OBO (one-by-one). With ordinals all over the place after the top three skaters, when the OBO spreadsheets were tallied, Sarah landed in fourth. Only three out of nine judges agreed, but that was the system.

    In the long program Sarah's ordinals were 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 4. Five first place ordinals. End of story. Was she really the best? Five judges thought so, four thought otherwise.

    Under factored placements, this left Irina and Sarah tied, with Sarah holding the LP tie-breaker.

    So, who was worthy and who was unworthy? Sarah's lucky stars were all in a row, that's for sure.

    By the way, the following day the New York Times published an article stating that if the U.S. judge, Joe Inman, had put Michelle second and Irina third, then Michelle would have been second in the LP and the Olympic gold medalist overall. This turned out to be incorrect. The Times mistakenly thought that the scoring system was "majority of ordinals," which was used for national contests in the United States. But after the bizarre results of the men's competition at the previous year's Europeans, the ISU had switched from majority of ordinals to OBO. Under OBO, two judges would have had to switch for Michelle to come out on top.

    Outcomes like this encouraged the ISU to press forward with the CoP.

    (GKelly can correct this post for me if I made any mistakes. )
    Last edited by Mathman; 10-30-2013 at 07:46 PM.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Worthy of that Olympic Championship in 1994? No, they weren't. Especially when there are a superior team doing superior programs cleanly.
    M/D are a superior team, LOL! Even if you think they deserved the 94 Olympic Gold, there is no way M/D are "the superior team". M/D are legends in their own right, but G/G are widely recognized as the best pairs team in history. M/D never defeated G/G and there are only 2 events their whole careers they arguably deserved to- 1990 Worlds and 1994 Olympics. That is it, and those 2 occasions only since G/G made uncharacteristic mistakes. Any other meetings between the 2 were not even remotedly close.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    M/D are a superior team, LOL! Even if you think they deserved the 94 Olympic Gold, there is no way M/D are "the superior team". M/D are legends in their own right, but G/G are widely recognized as the best pairs team in history. M/D never defeated G/G and there are only 2 events their whole careers they arguably deserved to- 1990 Worlds and 1994 Olympics. That is it, and those 2 occasions only since G/G made uncharacteristic mistakes. Any other meetings between the 2 were not even remotedly close.
    I'm with you, pangtong fan!

  12. #102
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    A nicer way of putting it would be: lucky Olympic champions who upset the favorites.

    Even those "lucky" people did not come from nowhere.

    A few examples:
    1. Winner-Sarah. Favorite-Michelle or Irina. Shocker? Not really. Sarah was considered one of the top skaters of her era and was a world bronze medallist. Maybe today she would suffer the same fate as Mirai (looks like she did a good job, but apparently didn't rotate enough) but back then she was an up and coming star.

    2. Tara,Evan and Oksana were World Champions from the previous year. The silver medallists did very well and arguably could have/should have been the winner, but none of these three were undeserving or just came out of nowhere.

    3. Scott, Carolina and Patrick. I'm assuming the latter two will medal in Sochi, and I'm rather cynically imagining they will not skate clean, as has been their pattern. I'm not wishing ill will on them--I hope they do well. But they illustrate something.

    All three of these skated at a time when falls didn't matter as much as school figures (Scott) or "skating skills" (Patrick and Carolina). The woman who beat Janet Lynn would be in this category as well. Had any of these four skated in the golden age of no figures and clean skating counting most of all, from the 90s to the early to mid 00s, they would not have won. But they fulfilled the requirements of their era, whether the fans liked it or not. Evan might be here, too. That year, you could get enough points without a quad, and he figured out how to do it.

    So I wouldn't say any of them were undeserved. Now, if you want to go the other way, we could talk about people who should have gotten a medal but had really bad luck/timing, like Kurt Browning or Todd Eldredge.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poodlepal View Post
    A nicer way of putting it would be: lucky Olympic champions who upset the favorites.

    Even those "lucky" people did not come from nowhere.

    A few examples:
    1. Winner-Sarah. Favorite-Michelle or Irina. Shocker? Not really. Sarah was considered one of the top skaters of her era and was a world bronze medallist. Maybe today she would suffer the same fate as Mirai (looks like she did a good job, but apparently didn't rotate enough) but back then she was an up and coming star.

    2. Tara,Evan and Oksana were World Champions from the previous year. The silver medallists did very well and arguably could have/should have been the winner, but none of these three were undeserving or just came out of nowhere.

    3. Scott, Carolina and Patrick. I'm assuming the latter two will medal in Sochi, and I'm rather cynically imagining they will not skate clean, as has been their pattern. I'm not wishing ill will on them--I hope they do well. But they illustrate something.

    All three of these skated at a time when falls didn't matter as much as school figures (Scott) or "skating skills" (Patrick and Carolina). The woman who beat Janet Lynn would be in this category as well. Had any of these four skated in the golden age of no figures and clean skating counting most of all, from the 90s to the early to mid 00s, they would not have won. But they fulfilled the requirements of their era, whether the fans liked it or not. Evan might be here, too. That year, you could get enough points without a quad, and he figured out how to do it.

    So I wouldn't say any of them were undeserved. Now, if you want to go the other way, we could talk about people who should have gotten a medal but had really bad luck/timing, like Kurt Browning or Todd Eldredge.
    Excellent post Poodlepal! and I'd love it if you'd start a new thread with the question you pose at the end of it!

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    M/D are a superior team, LOL! Even if you think they deserved the 94 Olympic Gold, there is no way M/D are "the superior team". M/D are legends in their own right, but G/G are widely recognized as the best pairs team in history. M/D never defeated G/G and there are only 2 events their whole careers they arguably deserved to- 1990 Worlds and 1994 Olympics. That is it, and those 2 occasions only since G/G made uncharacteristic mistakes. Any other meetings between the 2 were not even remotedly close.
    Superior technically.
    Superior programs.
    Superior innovation.

    Don't get it twisted. G/G are pleasant and neat looking, but M/D put out magical programs in their short career. M/D's programs are so varied in mood, musicality. They performed to wider range than G/G could ever hope for.

    M/D are a superior team, no doubt.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    M/D are a superior team, no doubt.
    Like on most things figure skating you are in your own little World on this one.

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