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Thread: Skaters who'll be remembered with time as among the greats

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  1. #1
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    Current skaters who'll be remembered with time as among the greats

    Discuss. My choices are:

    1. Yuna Kim



    2. Savchenko/Szolkowy, Virtue/Moir (tied)

    Being respectively four-time WCs and Oly champs, they have incorporated so much difficulty and originality into their programs without harming the essence of the respective disciplines.

    4. Mao Asada

    Thanks to her star power figure skating has enjoyed unprecedented popularity in Japan, with the emphasis on her beauty, a 3Axel and the rivalry between her and Yuna Kim (legitimate or not). Despite her weaknesses the current scoring system heavily penalizes, I'm inclined to think her presence and her skating are special enough to be remembered among the greats.

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    I'd add Takahashi to this list. He's always been more than just a competitive skater. That quality of artistic maturity and innovation, added to the position he holds in Japanese skating history--first male Olympic medalist, first male World champion--should ensure his legacy, I'd say.

    I'd agree about S/S. Their unusual choreography gives pair skating another dimension.

    YuNa, Virtue/Moir, and Mao I'd agree to without any argument at all.

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    Agree with Kim. To be honest, her performances leave me cold, but there is no denying her excellence - never finished off the podium in any competition... that James Bond routine and MONSTROUS record scores to win the 2010 Olympic gold (although I question whether she should have won by THAT margin of points)

    Asada for sure too. Unless someone steps up to the plate, she may be remembered as the last female skater to perform triple axels. So many medals... the first woman to complete the GP grand slam (gold at all GP events)... first to land 3 triple axels in a single competition... many performances that stay in your mind, especially the 2012/2013 season (Mary Poppins exhibition!!!)

    I don't think Virtue and Moir can be added to the list, without Davis and White: I wonder if either team would have reached they heights they have, without the other to compete against?

    Takahashi will surely be remembered for the artistry, expression, passion and personality of his performances, as well as his achievements of course. Mambo!

    I'd say Hanyu is also destined to become one of the greats. He has already delivered the most firey, determined and passionate performance I've ever seen (2012 world's FS), and I will always remember him for that, regardless of what he does in future.

    I also have high hopes for Lipnitskaia. Last year, she was "just another" Russian gymnastic/athletic wunderkind... but this year she has added such elegance, gracefullness, and convincing emotion and expression. Amazing progress, and she has learned to smile. If she can get through growing pains and continue to develop, she is surely destined for superstardom. Also her axel jump is currently very low, I'm sure if she jumped higher she could manage a triple...!

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    Quote Originally Posted by YesWay View Post
    Agree with Kim. To be honest, her performances leave me cold, but there is no denying her excellence - never finished off the podium in any competition... that James Bond routine and MONSTROUS record scores to win the 2010 Olympic gold (although I question whether she should have won by THAT margin of points)

    Asada for sure too. Unless someone steps up to the plate, she may be remembered as the last female skater to perform triple axels. So many medals... the first woman to complete the GP grand slam (gold at all GP events)... first to land 3 triple axels in a single competition... many performances that stay in your mind, especially the 2012/2013 season (Mary Poppins exhibition!!!)

    I don't think Virtue and Moir can be added to the list, without Davis and White: I wonder if either team would have reached they heights they have, without the other to compete against?

    Takahashi will surely be remembered for the artistry, expression, passion and personality of his performances, as well as his achievements of course. Mambo!

    I'd say Hanyu is also destined to become one of the greats. He has already delivered the most firey, determined and passionate performance I've ever seen (2012 world's FS), and I will always remember him for that, regardless of what he does in future.

    I also have high hopes for Lipnitskaia. Last year, she was "just another" Russian gymnastic/athletic wunderkind... but this year she has added such elegance, gracefullness, and convincing emotion and expression. Amazing progress, and she has learned to smile. If she can get through growing pains and continue to develop, she is surely destined for superstardom. Also her axel jump is currently very low, I'm sure if she jumped higher she could manage a triple...!
    sadly true. she does not move many people, too introverted, almost too shy to emote or play a character, even. but her technical brilliance/consistency is her card to those monster scores. she is perhaps lived too little of life to be an artist. if she skates many more years of shows, we may see more than her speed, big 3x3's. I love the person as she seems genuine. other than her public ange and sacking of orser, she has seemed humble despite her goddess stature in her country.

    try watching her EX in Vancouver. It gets better after a few watches. I think this was the most transparent and moved I ever saw from her. YuNa has her strong points and CoP and judges love her. I always found her overscored but I think it is needed to see her in person. The speed/huge jumps, and she is packaged well-pretty lady. That was Toller's big criticism-he was not moved. But Joannie stole the show and tears of the world. YuNa was crowned. I never agreed with 20 points over Mao-excessive. But when she is clean, she is unbeatable for sure.

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    Typical skateluvr delusion. Do not post on my thread.

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    I think this is like another thread recently.

    Great is so subjective. Great what? Athlete? Artist? Innovator? Not namy innovators left-it has all been done pretty much. I think S/S are great athletes but I dislike their programs so-no, not in the list of truly great pair teams like Rodnina/Zaitsev or G and G. Like saints and apparitions, I thin one must use great only after career is done.

    Exceptions might include the competitive record and persona of Plushenko. He's there for me. May Sochi add to his legend, not detract.

    If YuNa wins a second gold then yes, she is a great. I think I'd rather watch Janet Lynn skate, and Janet has an Oly bronze. But for me, that is great skating.

    I'd put D/W on that list even if they leave with two silver medals. They are brilliant and I hope they stay around a couple more years to rack up world titles.

    As far as great innovators-one only sees this in ice dance. CoP seems to not bring out innovation in singles. Zhang had a great spin, but the rest is not there, so how does one begin to use "great" I go with time/body of work/wins as the definers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    sadly true. she does not move many people, too introverted, almost too shy to emote or play a character, even. but her technical brilliance/consistency is her card to those monster scores. she is perhaps lived too little of life to be an artist. if she skates many more years of shows, we may see more than her speed, big 3x3's. I love the person as she seems genuine. other than her public ange and sacking of orser, she has seemed humble despite her goddess stature in her country.

    try watching her EX in Vancouver. It gets better after a few watches. I think this was the most transparent and moved I ever saw from her. YuNa has her strong points and CoP and judges love her. I always found her overscored but I think it is needed to see her in person. The speed/huge jumps, and she is packaged well-pretty lady. That was Toller's big criticism-he was not moved. But Joannie stole the show and tears of the world. YuNa was crowned. I never agreed with 20 points over Mao-excessive. But when she is clean, she is unbeatable for sure.
    Very well said, skateluvr! ITA.

    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr
    Like saints and apparitions, I thin one must use great only after career is done.
    Good point. I don't know how some posters can say with such certainty who will be remembered as great and who will not. Only time will tell. Thanks for posting!

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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    I think this is like another thread recently.

    Great is so subjective. Great what? Athlete? Artist? Innovator? Not namy innovators left-it has all been done pretty much. I think S/S are great athletes but I dislike their programs so-no, not in the list of truly great pair teams like Rodnina/Zaitsev or G and G. Like saints and apparitions, I thin one must use great only after career is done.

    Exceptions might include the competitive record and persona of Plushenko. He's there for me. May Sochi add to his legend, not detract.

    If YuNa wins a second gold then yes, she is a great. I think I'd rather watch Janet Lynn skate, and Janet has an Oly bronze. But for me, that is great skating.

    I'd put D/W on that list even if they leave with two silver medals. They are brilliant and I hope they stay around a couple more years to rack up world titles.

    As far as great innovators-one only sees this in ice dance. CoP seems to not bring out innovation in singles. Zhang had a great spin, but the rest is not there, so how does one begin to use "great" I go with time/body of work/wins as the definers.
    Yuna needs two OGM to be considered "a great", but everyone from Janet Lynn to Plushenko is exempted from this requirement--they don't even need one OGM. Not only do you have a subjective criteria, you have a different one for each skater.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    sadly true. she does not move many people, too introverted, almost too shy to emote or play a character, even. but her technical brilliance/consistency is her card to those monster scores. she is perhaps lived too little of life to be an artist. if she skates many more years of shows, we may see more than her speed, big 3x3's. I love the person as she seems genuine. other than her public ange and sacking of orser, she has seemed humble despite her goddess stature in her country.
    Indeed. And I admire her donations/work for charity etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    I always found her overscored but I think it is needed to see her in person. The speed/huge jumps, and she is packaged well-pretty lady. That was Toller's big criticism-he was not moved. But Joannie stole the show and tears of the world. YuNa was crowned. I never agreed with 20 points over Mao-excessive. But when she is clean, she is unbeatable for sure.
    Regarding the scoring, I usually have no problem with her wins - she delivers solid, clean programs under pressure and I think she deserves her medals. But sometimes the numbers... the margin of points... just seem crazy to me.

    I mean, take her Olympic world record scores:
    If her SP PCS score was multiplied by 1 (men's factor) instead of 0.8 (ladies factor), and her FS PCS score multipled by 2 (men) instead of 1.6 (ladies)... her total would have been 255.

    Such an overall score would have meant podium positions in the MENS competitions for:
    Olympics 2010 (Bronze, and very close to Gold)
    Worlds 2010 (Silver, close to Gold)
    Worlds 2011 (Bronze)
    Worlds 2012 (Bronze)
    Worlds 2013 (Bronze)
    etc etc etc

    Is her PCS really worth so much? I mean, so much that it overcomes the higher TES scores of men who are landing quads, 4+3 combinations, and multiple 3A's which she doesn't? Or are men's GOE's so bad that those big jumps don't give them a huge TES advantage? I don't get it. Same could be said of Asada's or Ando's 200+ scores.

    But I confess I am no kind of expert on judging. I just see performances that - although excellent - don't look like that much better than the silver medallists at some competitions. And it has to be said - if a skating enthusiast with at least basic knowledge struggles to understand the scoring... what hope for casual viewers? (Past scandals, and anonymous scoring don't exactly help confidence in the scoring either).

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    Quote Originally Posted by YesWay View Post
    I mean, take her Olympic world record scores:
    If her SP PCS score was multiplied by 1 (men's factor) instead of 0.8 (ladies factor), and her FS PCS score multipled by 2 (men) instead of 1.6 (ladies)... her total would have been 255.

    Such an overall score would have meant podium positions in the MENS competitions for:
    Olympics 2010 (Bronze, and very close to Gold)
    Worlds 2010 (Silver, close to Gold)
    Worlds 2011 (Bronze)
    Worlds 2012 (Bronze)
    Worlds 2013 (Bronze)
    etc etc etc

    Is her PCS really worth so much? I mean, so much that it overcomes the higher TES scores of men who are landing quads, 4+3 combinations, and multiple 3A's which she doesn't?
    Your thinking process is flawed. I am glad that you confess to not be an expert at the scoring and judging. You can't even explain why the women's PCS factor is set up to be half the men's. If you were able to, you would know that this is an inappropriate way to consider her scores.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    (Kim) does not move many people,…
    She moves me. Her best performances, her long programs at the 2010 Olympics and 2013 Worlds, are simply jaw-dropping. That is what figure skating ought to be.

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    Though not a fan, Witt is definitely a legend in the sport. Her popularity reached beyond the 2 OGMs. She was one of the most well-known skaters to the general public.

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    There was a discussion about that on another thread somewhere wasn't there? I got the impression that those who were deemed to be 'great' were characterised by longevity and changing the face of figure skating in some way or another, like Janet Lynn or Dick Button or someone like that.

    I think Plush will be remembered as one of the greats because at his height, he was doing 4-3-3 and wonderful triple-axels and he has stayed in the sport for so long.
    Michelle Kwan also will be remembered, I think, because while she didn't really advance the sport in any specific way, she did stay in the sport for a very long time, and she will be remembered for being the skater who didn't win the OGM multiple times despite being the favorite.
    Patrick, I think, will be remembered because I think he will win the OGM, and his skating skill is jaw-droppingly phenomenal.

    As for the others that have been listed, I'm not sure. They will certainly be remembered, but maybe not as one of THE greats because either they haven't stayed in the sport long enough (at least three Olympic cycles, preferably four) or, while they may be the best skater or one of the best skaters of their generation, their greatness isn't guaranteed to withstand the test of time (as of yet).

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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    There was a discussion about that on another thread somewhere wasn't there? I got the impression that those who were deemed to be 'great' were characterised by longevity and changing the face of figure skating in some way or another, like Janet Lynn or Dick Button or someone like that.

    I think Plush will be remembered as one of the greats because at his height, he was doing 4-3-3 and wonderful triple-axels and he has stayed in the sport for so long.
    Michelle Kwan also will be remembered, I think, because while she didn't really advance the sport in any specific way, she did stay in the sport for a very long time, and she will be remembered for being the skater who didn't win the OGM multiple times despite being the favorite.
    Patrick, I think, will be remembered because I think he will win the OGM, and his skating skill is jaw-droppingly phenomenal.

    As for the others that have been listed, I'm not sure. They will certainly be remembered, but maybe not as one of THE greats because either they haven't stayed in the sport long enough (at least three Olympic cycles, preferably four) or, while they may be the best skater or one of the best skaters of their generation, their greatness isn't guaranteed to withstand the test of time (as of yet).
    This thread was started with the intention of discussing currently competing skaters. Please leave Michelle Kwan, Alexei Yagudin, Gordeeva/Grinkov, Torvill/Dean, Dick Button, Ulrich Salchow, Gillis Grafstrom and Sonja Henie and so on out of this.

    Evgeni Plushenko is already remembered as one of the greatest. Regardless of the result in Sochi (and whether he competes there or not), I think his legacy will remain mostly unchanged.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moment View Post
    This thread was started with the intention of discussing currently competing skaters. Please leave Michelle Kwan, Alexei Yagudin, Gordeeva/Grinkov, Torvill/Dean, Dick Button, Ulrich Salchow, Gillis Grafstrom and Sonja Henie and so on out of this.

    Evgeni Plushenko is already remembered as one of the greatest. Regardless of the result in Sochi (and whether he competes there or not), I think his legacy will remain mostly unchanged.
    Well, okay. I think that of all the current skaters, Patrick actually will the skater that the future generation will recognize as being great. Not that the other skaters aren't great of course.

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